Authority vs submission – Ephesians 5:22 continuing comments
Since our last post on authority and submission had so many comments, it appears it is going to crash the post like another post did. So I am asking everyone to continue their comments on this post (comments post #2) so that we can continue without having a crash.
408 thoughts on “Authority vs submission – Ephesians 5:22 continuing comments”
It looks like the last post crashed with too many comments. I should have started a new post a lot sooner. I am going to see if I can remove a few comments if that will help and post them here.
Here is Susanna’s last comment:
I find 1 Peter 5:5 to be compelling. Peter has spent most of his letter telling Christians in a pagan culture how to get along in that culture, including submission to the authorities which are in place in that culture (acknowledging the existence of an authority is not the same thing as setting up an authority or even endorsing the authority as having a God-given right to rule. It is simply acknowledging the existence of an authority.) Peter then goes on to inter-church relations– and just as we see in Paul’s letter to the Ephesians (focusing on inter-church relations), we see that “one another” language.
Here’s a link to 1 Peter 5:5 in an online interlinear:
http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1pe5.pdf
The meaning from the interlinear appears to be “All of you, submit to one another in humility like a slave’s apron.”
The use of “all of you” negates the possibility of arguing here that Peter simply meant “some (those under authority) to others (those in authority).” He just finished giving specific instructions to elders (as those in authority), and then to youths (as those under authority)– and then he goes on to say, “all of you, submit to one another in humility.” Meaning both the elders and the youths– in fact, the whole church– is to submit to one another. And what does the submission look like? It looks like “humility like a slave’s apron.”
To address what Mark said in his post #614 in the earlier thread– This does not mean that the elders were supposed to treat the youths as if the youths were in authority over them. Submission is not some sort of blanket application that looks the same in every case. People are individuals, and submission is a heart of service and yielding to the real needs of another.
I work in the nursery at my church, and I can honestly say that a large part of what I do involves this sort of submission to the babies. I don’t force them to do what I want, I look at their needs and what they want to do. If the baby suddenly loses in the book we’re “reading,” I lay the book aside. I let the baby take the lead. If the baby shows interest in a toy, I help the baby reach the toy. Even though I am in authority over the baby, and will exercise that authority when necessary (such as when the baby hits another baby), my submission to the baby is NOT about authority. It’s something else entirely. It has nothing to do with who is in authority. It has to do with the baby having needs for human interaction on its own terms, and my ability to meet it according to those terms, where it is incapable of meeting me.
This is clearly not the same sort of submission that two adults would use towards one another. But it’s submission, nevertheless.
The Bible speaks frequently of submission as submission to authority– but not always. The “one another” verses cannot, by their very nature, imply authority.
This question of what “submission” means is, then, tangential to the question of whether the husband’s authority over the wife as seen in the Bible is just an acknowledged part of the (fallen) culture, or is part of God’s original design and His plan for Kingdom relationships. I have seen no evidence in the Scriptures to the latter.
Sorry, this:
If the baby suddenly loses in the book we’re “reading”. . .
Should have read, “If the baby suddenly loses interest in the book we’re “reading”. . .
Kristen,
let me try and understand what your saying. The Bible does promote an authority/submission paradigm but not always. Therefore the husband/wife is not an authority one but a different ‘mutual’ submission. Which one’s are authority based and which aren’t? What criteria do you use to determine what means authority and what doesn’t?
Now let’s apply that to your own testimony with children. You admit you are in ‘authority’ yet you say you are submissive to them. Maybe you need to define your words, becasue it sounds like you confuse service with submission. You don’t ‘submit’ to that child becasue you are not ‘subordinate’ to him/her (BDAG definition of submit), but you use your authority to serve and love that child. You cannot be in authority and submit to the same person…it’s an oxymoron- because to be submissive means to be subordinate, and to be subordinate excludes the possibility of being in authority over the person you submit to.
What makes you think ‘one another’ changes the meaning of the verb ‘submit’? Where is your evidence for this change to take place?
If you answered other things on the other post, i’m afraid i didn’t get a chance to read them.
Cheers
Mark wrote”
” I find it fascinating that you say Christians talk about ‘gifts’ not roles. I think there is an element of truth to your claim, but i also think ‘gift’ based theologies and practices are increasingly becoming unbiblical. Any ‘gift’ that is bestowed will always be in accord with Biblical revelation. Not only that who decides that one is ‘gifted’.”
Wow Mark. Talk about making Grand Canyon sized leaps! I mention gifts and all of a sudden I am a pentecostal! “Spiritual gifts” as in the eye cannot say to the hand I have no need of you. Everyone in the Body is needed. (The true Body, of course)
You do realize that you come here with preconceived notions. I think you picture (like most of us who were brainwashed ) a bunch of feminazi’s in sensible shoes who want to ordain homosexual pastors.
You would be shocked at how conservative I am not only in politics but in Doctrine. I just happen to know that wanting authority over others in the Body is sinful. A true overseer is the lowliest servant who cares for souls. Puts others before him or herself. Jesus Christ is the authority.
Why not ask me to clarify before you jump to conclusions? While you are at it, why not show me in NC scripture where it mentions ‘laity’. Or did you not know in the NC, all true believers are “priests”? Even women are included in that.
“As in relation to culture wars, the egalitarian ‘gift’ based interpretations of scripture and practice may not be so innocent as you seemingly hint at. We are all products of our culture, egalitarianism included and probably more so than any other.”
Gifts have nothing to do with egal or comp. They are given by the Holy Spirit to edify the Body. Just so you don’t go leaping off tall buildings again, understand I do not believe in speaking in tongues. But I do believe in the indwelling Holy Spirit but that the Holy Spirit illuminates the truth of the Word to us. (Best seminary professor ever!)
The Danvers statement WAS a response to the culture. The entire comp movement was a response to the culture. If you want to discuss the feminization of the culture, you gotta go back to the early 1900’s where the true feminists were hanging out.
The relationship pre fall was egalitarian. Ezer is help.God is described as Ezer. So are men in the OT. Eve was a help comparable to Adam. His mirror, so to speak. Adam recognized this…we know by his own words. They are ONE FLESH. How does one get authority over out of ONE FLESH, I will never know.
So, egal is pre fall. Now, in Christ, there is neither male nor female. IN CHRIST…with full inheritance.
You are speaking to a former comp. I lived it. Read all the books and inside I knew something was wrong. All around me men and women were focusing on each other’s roles. It took the focus off CHRIST IN ME and onto the roles and rules. It was a works religion.
Only until I decided to really study the Word did I find different. Mutual love and submission with Jesus Christ as each believers authority. There is no layer between a woman and her Savior.
Susannah,
I’m interested to hear how you believe you have answered Grudem’s challenge. Can you explain how James 4:4-10 is reciprocal submission with no authority? Can you explain how 1 Peter 3 is mutual submission with no authority? Can you flesh out how you believe the apostolic fathers were teaching an egalitarian mutual submission with no authority?
Thanks
Lydia,
It sounds like i offended you, that was not my intention. I was simply responding to your ‘culture’ wars remarks.
I have to admit that you are the first egalitarian i have ever spoken with who is not a pentecostal or at least charasmatic in their theology!
Now please don’t be hypocritical and say i am the only one with pre-conceived ideas, that’s non-sense. For example you said that ‘wanting authority is sinful’. Who said anything about that? I don’t want authority, i just believe the Bible teaches it, so who now has ‘preconcieved’ ideas??? I’d be happy to accept egalitarianism if i thought it was Biblical because i see how much damage authority does when in the hands of sinful men and women.
The Danvers statement was a response to egalitarianism not the secular culture. Sure the two are tied but you overstate your case. It was a response to Christians not unbelievers.
You have a few huge statements in your response that need addressing. The first is that comp is works based religion! Are you really prepared to state such an accusation and accuse comps as heretics or was that just a rash response? Second, you said that you only discovered egal after you read the word- so you didn’t read the Bible before then, and people like Grudem and Piper don’t read the Word of God? C, mon now, it is obvious when one saids such things that emotions are governing the discussion.
Let’s be honest, you have over reacted to my comment. You bring serious charges against me and loads of other saying we are heretics and promote ‘works’ religion. Maybe this is a ‘first order’ issue for you, i don’t know?
Finally, if you truly do read the Bible and have a true desire for the truth, why is it that you use Gal 3:28 as a proof text. Any time an egal uses this it makes me cringe, since the whole setting of that verse is in relation to salvation not ministry or human/human relationships. I’ll be honest and say it is disappointing to see such poor hermenutics in so many egalitarians. Some i greatly respect (Gordon Fee) but others not so much. It’s good to discuss Gen 1-3, Eph 5, 1 Tim 2 etc, but Gal 3:28 is terrible. You might aswell go tell a Jew they are no longer Jewish but gentile. Paul’s point is salvation through faith is not gender, culture or socially exclusive.
Mark said, “You cannot be in authority and submit to the same person…it’s an oxymoron- because to be submissive means to be subordinate, and to be subordinate excludes the possibility of being in authority over the person you submit to.”
Mark, p[lease use your dictionary. In it you will find that subordination and submission are two very different things. For starters, subordination is a result of hierarchy. It is a result of one being over another and can happen through legitimate social relationships, but can also simply happen through abuse and the stronger dominating the weaker. A person has not choice over whether or not they are subordinate, it is dictated by the hierarchy.
Submission, however, is something that someone can choose to do. I can choose to submit to my subordinate. If you doubt this, then perhaps you should look at God’s example in Christ Jesus!
Lets use words correctly and stop redefining things to suit theology!
Mark said, “I have to admit that you are the first egalitarian i have ever spoken with who is not a pentecostal or at least charasmatic in their theology!”
I must be the second!
Mark,
With regards to your post #4, I have posted a great many posts in the earlier thread that explain my position on authority. In short, it is that in the Kingdom of God, authority does not come by being born to it (as a man by being born male would be born to one day have leadership over a wife), but is according to calling, character and competence. I do not wish to completely start over with all my arguments for this position. Please go back and read my earlier posts.
With regards to Galatians 3:28, the context includes salvation, but its focus is unity– it ends, “for we are all ONE in Christ Jesus,” not “for we are all saved by Christ Jesus.” How there can be true unity when one group believes they are born to have authority over another group which is born to be subordinate, completely escapes me.
With regards to submission being the same as subordination, I disagree with that and with BDAG. Several examples have already been given above, of how Clement and Polycarp used the word we translate “submit” in a way that does not connote subordination. Please read post #1 above. I find Clement and Polycarp, who spoke Koine Greek and lived during or near the time of Paul, to be a lot more compelling than you or BDAG on what a word in their own language meant.
I used to be charismatic, but when I was, I wasn’t egalitarian. I came to be egalitarian by being convinced of the position, not because of what church I belong to.
Just for the record….
Being charismatic has nothing to do with anything as far as one’s leanings toward being hierarchically or equality minded. There are charismatic individuals in every group. Although, I find it almost impossible for a person to be completely non charismatic. Usually, the chief complaint is whether one believes tongues still exist or the miraculous gifts.
Mark you wrote: “I’m interested to hear how you believe you have answered Grudem’s challenge. Can you explain how James 4:4-10 is reciprocal submission with no authority? Can you explain how 1 Peter 3 is mutual submission with no authority? Can you flesh out how you believe the apostolic fathers were teaching an egalitarian mutual submission with no authority?”
Absolutely, dear brother Mark! Oh by the way I am the third egal who is not pentecostal. At present I am Presbyterian but about to become a Free Methodist (due to moving to a Free Methodist conference Center).
Let’s start with Jas 4. If hypotasso means subjection to authority, we have a huge problem with this verse since it would mean that as long as we do not submit to God and are in allegiance with the devil we have authority over God. Does it make sense? I didn’t think so. The antonym of hypotasso is antitasso (to resist). I.e as long as submit (are friends with) to the devil, we resist God. When we submit to God, we automatically resist the devil. The same is found in Rom 13: either you submit to the civil government, or you resist it. The text does not say that you have the choice of either having authority over the civil government or submitting to it. The choice is either to submit or to resist the government. Note also that God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble; the civil governments will resists the lawbreaker and give praise to the one who does good. There is a parallel and it is the key to the question you asked. The one who submits, i.e. does not resist, is praised, the one who resists is him or herself resisted. In both cases the issue is not about usurping authority (as 1 Tim 2 is falsely translated) but the choice we all have in either agreeing with or resisting the other party. The civil authorities function within agreed rules and limits, i.e. they are not to seek selfish gain, and their submission to the people is seen in how they perform their task. If they seek personal gain, they have become tyrants and the Bible explicitly condemns tyrants. God has all authority as our Creator, but in the case of Jas 4 it is not his authority that is the question: it is our personal allegiance that is the question. We can choose to love God or follow the devil. Note that chapter 4 begins with the condemnation of adultery: the Christian community has committed adultery in that they have loved the world (and the devil) instead of God. This is significant for our understanding of Eph 5: Adultery is a breach of the love and devotion a wife owes her husband. I.e. resist all other temptations and submit to your husband as he submits (loves and remains devoted) to you. In Jas 4 the cure is to submit to God and resist the devil. This would not be possible if there was a hierarchy.
Mark said, “I have to admit that you are the first egalitarian i have ever spoken with who is not a pentecostal or at least charasmatic in their theology!”
You certainly must be joking.
I wish i was gengwell! Sorry Dave, i should have assumed better knowing you are a Pressie minister.
Let me put it this way, where i am studying at the moment, i have not met one egalitarian who holds to a conservative theology.
It makes sense really, since most ‘conservative’ churches don’t generally allow female ministers, so more often than not the egalitarians come from the churches that do- which are generally AOG or the like.
Let me say it is encouraging for me to see egalitarians who hold to a solid theology.
Susannah, i’ll comment more on your comment later on…it’s dinner time!
Cheers
P.S to Dave- ‘same goes big nose’ (hope you get it!)
I get it Mark, though I do have a bit of a rampant snoz…so I am slightly sensitive about my nose! :0(
Dave,
I think we have a similar sense of humuor…maybe it’s the Aussie blood, i dunno. I have accepted your challenge to look at dictionary entries and found them interesting. Especially in light of claims that comps give egals definitions that are not correct, such as ‘identical’. Bare with me as i look at some meanings. I’m basing what i say on the assumption that you believe in ‘mutual submission’, or ‘reciprocal submission’. So here goes!
BDAG translates hypotasso as i’m sure we all know as ‘subordinate’
Most english translations make hypotasso as ‘submit’. So according to the Oxford dictionary submit means…
“accept or yield to a superior force or stronger person”
So it doesn’t appear that the english term ‘submit’ allows for such a concept as ‘mutual’ since it involves a ‘superior force’. But what about ‘submission’ which is similar but different…
“the action or fact of submitting”
The Oxford allows the term ‘submitting’ which is grouped under the same title as ‘submit’. So again it appears that the english words ‘submit’ or ‘submission’ do not allow for a mutual or reciprocal force. Therefore are comps all that wrong! It seems hard to understand the egal system when it uses terms that are oxymoron’s in nature. But what about ‘mutual’…maybe that helps qualify the term submit…
“experienced or done by each of two or more parties towards the other or others”
It seems that this is quite good. What A does to B, B does to A. But we must ask how does that fit with the term ‘submit’ or ‘submission’, since by definition it requires a ‘superior force’ to exist. Now reciprocal…
“given, felt or done in return”
Another good definition…what A does to B, B does to A. Now to me, this appears ‘identical’ in nature. Both mutual and reciprocal say that it is ‘done towards others’ or ‘done in return’.
So i maintain that the phrase ‘mutual submission’ is an oxymoron in the English grammar. To ‘submit’ or be in ‘submission’ requires according to the Oxford dictionary a ‘superior force’, so how can it be mutual, since one is superior?
So now how does this ‘mutual submission’ work in practice. You say it is not identical in all relationships which i think is right…but then we must ask, is it then ‘mutual’ at all? Apparently not! It seems to me that the egal system is a nonsense statement since mutual submission is an oxymoron. It’s not mutual because it does not look the same in all relationships, and it is not submission becasue it denies a ‘superior force’. The egal phrase ‘mutual submission’ is a contradiction, so please don’t accuse comps for giving wrong definitions to your terms. You need to re-calculate your terminology so that it does not mean ‘submit’ because you deny authority, and so that it does not mean mutual, since it does not behave the same in all situations or circumstances.
Susanne,
Thanks for your insights and thoughts on James 4, i found them helpful. But let me ask a further question to you which relates directly back to your claim at showing Grudem wrong.
‘How did any of what you said disprove Grudem’s challenge’?
Grudem asks egalitarians to show a use of hypotasso between people, when it does not involve authority. IN james 4, we are told to submit to God. To disprove Grudem’s challenge you would have to show how or why God is not in authority over us, which is exactly Grudem’s point. You did not even address his challenge. You need to be specific, when we are told to submit to God, is God in authority over us…yes or no!- this is Grudem’s challenge.
I look forward to further explanation on this and on the other Biblical and non biblical uses.
Cheers
HI Cheryl,
I was just re-reading through your son Ryan’s comment and had a few questions. I realise you are not him, but i assume you know his train of thought.
He said “In other words, because the husband is the source of the wife (just like Christ is the source of the church) and therefore she his equal, they should be mutually submitting to one another in love. (The church is also treated as the equal of Christ in the sense that the new person will have a new body and will no longer sin).
I’m not even going to get into the ‘source’ debate, but i wonder what he means. In what way is the husband the source of his wife? What does that mean from the context? Then in what way does that parallel the Church and Christ?
Ryan saids the Church is ‘equal’ in the sense that we have a new body and don’t sin. Is Ryan here talking about now or in the new heavens and earth? What in the context makes it futuristic like that? If he saids the Church/Christ paradigm is in the future, then it be necessary for the comparison to say that the husband/wife paradigm is for the future. It therefore does not apply today, but even worse goes against the teaching that in heaven there is no marriage? This doesn’t make sense.
I wonder how Ryan thinks that the Church here is described as being equal to Christ when the church is told to submit! Christ is described as the head, the church His body, the saviour, and the church is told to submit to Christ and Ryan looks at all this and draws the conclusion that the church is ‘equal of Christ in the sense that the new person will have a new body and will no longer sin’…hah…did i miss something here? Talk about an importation of ideas into the passage.
Hope you can answer some of these for me. Thanks
Mark – thanks for taking the challenge!
You said, “I’m basing what i say on the assumption that you believe in ‘mutual submission’, or ‘reciprocal submission’.”
This was not necessary. I think if we understand submission first we will see how it can be mutual later.
You said, “BDAG translates hypotasso as i’m sure we all know as ’subordinate’”
Literally hypotasso means to place oneself under another. In light of this we need to determine if BDAG has used the correct English word when they provide the word “subordinate”. You see, if I place myself under another, then this is something that I have chosen to do. After all, why would Paul tell us to do something in Eph 5:21 that we have no choice in? The nature of submission is that there is choice.
So, according to Webster’s Dictionary, is this what “subordinate” means? Apparently it means “to set in order” by “order, class of rank; occupying a lower position in a scale, inferior in nature, power, importance, etc”. The thing about subordination is it is determined by things that are often out of our control. This is why it speaks of things like ‘inferiority by nature.’
You then said, “Most english translations make hypotasso as ’submit’.”
Glad to hear it! You said, “ So according to the Oxford dictionary submit means…“accept or yield to a superior force or stronger person”.
Hmmm, Webster’s gives us a bit more info, it says “to put under”, “To yield yourself to the power of another (not necessarily superior), and under submission we find words like, “meekness” and “humble”. To me this sounds like a much more accurate description of hypotasso. Would you not agree Mark?
Note the difference between the two. One has to do with placing things in a natural order – something we might or might not have control over. The other has to do with where we choose to place ourselves – it is about the choice of being the last, not the first.
You then said, “So it doesn’t appear that the english term ’submit’ allows for such a concept as ‘mutual’ since it involves a ’superior force’. But what about ’submission’ which is similar but different…“the action or fact of submitting”The Oxford allows the term ’submitting’ which is grouped under the same title as ’submit’. So again it appears that the english words ’submit’ or ’submission’ do not allow for a mutual or reciprocal force. Therefore are comps all that wrong!”
Hang on there big fella! Because it is something that we can choose to do, then I can do it to you, and you can choose to submit to me. Subordination, however, does not allow for mutuality because when you place things in an order they go from highest to lowest which dictates their position.
You then said, “ It seems hard to understand the egal system when it uses terms that are oxymoron’s in nature.”
According to the dictionary, we haven’t.
With regards to what you say about the word ‘mutual’, I think with the correct understanding of hypotasso the rest of your comment is seen as being incorrect. Perhaps your Oxford dictionary says submission is to a superior force, but my Webster’s does not mention this. Which is correct? Webster’s of course, as well as the other two dictionaries I looked up that did NOT mention that submission was to a superior force. Further, “submission” is a term that is used to describe the actions of a person who has lost a dual or a fight. In the case of knights, you submitted so you could have your life. Some chose not to submit, even though they had been beaten. They died – but the chose not to submit, which shows that those who submit to have their life spared still chose to submit. So even in this use (I suggest that this is where your dictionary is coming from) there is an issue of choice!
Mark, you suggest that because we say the submission will look different in different relationships it is not mutual. But this goes against your own definition of ‘mutual’. If I submit to you by washing behind your big ears and you submit to me by wiping my rampant snoz – we have submitted mutually. Submission is the thing that is mutual – not the nose wiping or the ear washing.
So, I suggest you recalculate your own terminology. I should add I am not denying authority. It is not in the Eph passage to deny.
Finally, Mark can love be mutual? Can we agape mutually? Can we bear one anothers burdens? Can we pray for each other mutually? According to your understanding of ‘mutuality’, apparently not. We do not have the same needs, so we will not pray the same things for each other. Does that mean we cannot mutually pray?
Again, Jesus told us to all carry our cross. Does that mean we must all die on a cross? Mark, it is just silly to hold to this view that submission must be identical to be mutual, and submission and subordination are fundamentally different. You have confused them.
“Note the difference between the two. One has to do with placing things in a natural order – something we might or might not have control over. The other has to do with where we choose to place ourselves – it is about the choice of being the last, not the first.”
Dave,
This is such a key point. No one is ever told to “ordinate” themselves ‘over’ anyone else! We are told to hypotasso ourselves – it is voluntary, not involuntary.
Dave,
I never said subordination was the same as submit. I deliberately did not look at subordination since i was trying to understand your view. I can do that if you like. In fact i will at the end here.
I agree submission is something we do. A wife is told to submit to her husband. She has to choose to do it, it cannot be demanded by the husband. God demands it, not the husband. But it is not mutual since the husband is not commanded to submit to his wife, as to the Lord. This is why ‘mutual’ is not effective to communicate what you believe.
Let me ask if i understand you correctly. The husband is in authority, but he still must submit (so the act is mutual not the authority in the relationship). If you accept the Webster’s definition of submit, what is the ‘power’ the submitter is submitting too? In the context of Eph 5:22 what is the ‘power’ of the husband that the wife is submitting too? You may reject the Oxford ‘superior’, but please explain the Webster’s.
I liked your nose wiping, ear washing analogy. Let’s expand it further…are they the same thing? As the dictionary defined mutual, it is done to others, what A does to B, B does to A. So if you wish to stick with the term ‘mutual’, you must by definition say it is identical. The way i submit to my pastor, is the exact same way he submits to me- that is mutual. Problem is, it won’t be the same. You are confusing the act of submitting (saying that is what is mutual) when what it appears you mean is that we all choose to submit. The choice of submitting is the same choice but it is not mutual. For it to be mutual, what A does to B, B does to A. There is a difference. That is why the term ‘mutual submission’ is nonsense.
I might be reading you wrong but you almost sound like a comp. You agree authority exists, yet the one in authority is to serve (though you use submit) the other. That is comp is it not. The issue appears that you continue to use the word ‘submit’ which the Oxford gives as superior, and the Webster ‘power’ which is why the confusion continues. Of course those egalitarians that reject authority in Eph 5 have other issues to face.
I’m really interested in how you explain the ‘power’ issue in Webster’s. It interests me so that we can see the relatioship between submit and subordination. If one is superior, or in power, is the submitter therefore not subordinate. You can be subordinate and still choose not to submit- kids do that all the time. Just becasue you choose TO submit, does not disregard the subordination.
Finally here is the definition for subordinate in Oxfords just for your reference…
“lower in rank or position…a person under the authority or control of another.”
Remember this is a secular dictionary. No comp driving there theology into this one! So to be subordinate is to be ‘under authority’ and to submit is to ‘yield to a superior force’. What’s the fundamental difference you wish to make Dave?
I must also admit that my nose is probably more out of proportion that my ears!!!
Dave,
One last point in relation to hypotasso. You need to remember that it is not an adjective or noun, so things like meekness and humility are not the best descriptions…we need to look at the verbal form.
I think this is key to understanding it’s meaning in the context of Eph 5. A wife who is in submission may be described as meek and humble (as she ought to be), but our interest should be in the verb should it not?
P.S how’s the bike riding in the back yard going? Have you hit the road yet?
Ive had an apiphony (is that how you spell that???)
Maybe egals should say they believe in ‘mutual submitting’ rather than mutual submission, that way at least the verbal action is what is emphasised not the description. Thoughts???
Problem with that though i guess, is that the verbal form ‘submit’ doesn’t look good for an egal (in terms of dictionary entries), so the adjectival form may be best to convince people even though it doesn’t convey what you actually mean.
Mark,
You say: “I agree submission is something we do. A wife is told to submit to her husband. She has to choose to do it, it cannot be demanded by the husband. God demands it, not the husband. But it is not mutual since the husband is not commanded to submit to his wife, as to the Lord. This is why ‘mutual’ is not effective to communicate what you believe.”
And…
you also said: “Yes my wife and i are included in Eph 5:21 since we are both members of the Christian community. We are included in the ‘one another’ as are all Christians in the Church. We will submit to those in the Christian community that God places over us.”
But here your own call for consistency in Bible exegesis goes out the window. Because by your exegesis, YOU are not submitting to “one another” but only to *“some others”*.
So please explain why for YOU, “one another” does not mean “one another” but only “some to others?”
”Grudem asks egalitarians to show a use of hypotasso between people, when it does not involve authority. IN james 4, we are told to submit to God. To disprove Grudem’s challenge you would have to show how or why God is not in authority over us, which is exactly Grudem’s point. “
Mark,
I’m guessing that you are a well read Grudemite. Many of us here have read much if not all of his writings also. We just disagree with much of it.
I would classify Grudem as an authoritarian. An authoritarian translates all of life as about authority and submission. He favors the concepts of everyone being in subjection to authority or being the authority figures rather than any concept of individual freedoms. He also classifies wives (and children) as in complete subjection to the will of the husband. With that kind of a life view it would be difficult to perceive the goodness of authority lowering himself to serve the desires or needs of another. It’s all about authority after all. Authority doesn’t lower himself; authority makes decisions and takes action. I can still remember Grudem making a point about the “fact” that when HE decided to move because his wife was not faring well with the climate where they were living, that he was not submitting to his wife or her needs, he was taking action. It was his decision. She had nothing to do with it. Those are the lenses through which Grudem chooses to view and live life.
I submit to you that in the Scriptures we will find a different life view. The Messiah did not come to the world as an authoritarian figure. He came humbly and resisted all attempts at being viewed as an authority or power figure. His power was in how far He would go in arranging Himself under humanity in order to free humanity from the bondage of evil. Christ as God incarnate still had all power and authority as the creator of all life, but He did not exercise authority or His Will over us. He exercised His Holy Will over evil. But for us, His future Body, His primary motive was to serve us for our betterment. Everything Jesus did produced freedom, life, healing, deliverance, knowledge and optimum goodness for those who received Him. He taught us how to live by example.
But we all are brothers and sisters in His Body. We are not Christs. It is not easy to understand how to lower ourselves and walk in humility only seeking to serve the needs of others. But that is what Jesus admonished us to do. We are to walk in agape, the kind of agape that motivated Jesus to suffer death on the cross for our sakes.
Here are some ways that we are to submit to one another in the Lord…
Mark,
What do you think about Gal 5:13? Do you consider yourself excluded from being a slave to your wife?
“I wish i was gengwell! Sorry Dave, i should have assumed better knowing you are a Pressie minister.
Let me put it this way, where i am studying at the moment, i have not met one egalitarian who holds to a conservative theology.
It makes sense really, since most ‘conservative’ churches don’t generally allow female ministers, so more often than not the egalitarians come from the churches that do- which are generally AOG or the like.”
I think you are drawing a parallel that is unsupportable. At first you said that you had not met an egal who was not “pentecostal or at least charasmatic” in their theology. Now you have changed it to “conservative theology” (what ever that is). The two are not mutually and universally inclusive. For example, you would consider Lutherans to be egalitarian because they allow female ministers. But Lutherans are decidedly NOT charismatic or pentecostal. So, although Lutherans may indeed follow a “liberal” theology (which is also debatable), they do not at all meet the first criteria you set for egals. I suggest your environment provides only a narrow set of examples.
I know this is a secondary issue but I just hate to be stereotyped. I am the least pentecostal and charismatic person I know (my Lutheran upbringing), but I also consider myself to be quite conservative in my theology, and yet I am egalitarian.
TL,
Sadly, they are often “read” more like this:
Romans 12:10 Be devoted to ‘some others’ in brotherly love. Honor ‘some others’ above yourselves.
1 Thessalonians 5:11 Therefore encourage ‘some others’ and build ‘some’ up, just as in fact you are doing.
Ephesians 4:32 Be kind and compassionate to ‘some others’, forgiving ‘some others’, just as in Christ God forgave you.
Ephesians 5:19 Speak to ‘some others’ with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord
Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider how ‘some’ may spur ‘some others’ on toward love and good deeds.
1 Peter 5:5 Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. ‘Some’ of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward ‘some others’, because, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
“Now you have changed it to “conservative theology” (what ever that is)”
In actuallity, you have changed it to the opposite of conservative theology, which I suppose would be liberal theology. Just wanted to clarify my above comment. The point being that not all liberal churches are pentacostal or charismatic (not by a long shot), nor are all conservative churches stoic.
637
Kay,
Does it ever end?
Dave (19) Mark and TL
Not going to quote all of you in the interest of time.
TL keeps saying hupotasso is voluntarily arranging under someone else. Mark has given us the definition from BAGD- “subordinate”. Dave strenuously objects to the idea of “subordinate”, can’t mean that, must mean “submissive”….
The Greek roots are hupo- under and tasso- arrange or order. Same for the Latin roots of the english word “subordinate” sub=under and ordinate=arrange.
Personally I dislike both “SUBORDINATE” and “SUBMIT”. I prefer “being subject” in Eph 5:21 and “are subject” in Eph 5:24. IMO, it better conveys the PASSIVE force of the verbs used.
Now, if we look at Eph 5:24 where God an Paul make a statement which IS NOT ADDRESSED TO WIVES but to the entire audience:
“but even as the assembly is subject to Christ, so also [are] the wives to their own husbands in everything. ” Eph 5:24 YLT
Dave said:
So, Dave and TL
you think the wife is being told in Ephesians 5:24 that she is supposed to
ALWAYS VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE TO BE LAST
ALWAYS VOLUNTARILY COME UNDER
????????????????????????????????
TBH, I lived that for 22 years of marriage and its horrid bondage
a very bad way of understanding what Paul/God is saying there A message that makes the wife pretty much disappear into the woodwork because “whatever he says, goes”. I mean Eph 5:24 says EVERYTHING and if she is responsible to voluntarily “be submissive” to him in EVERYTHING there might as well not be a her. God shouldn’t have made her at all. Clone Adam or stop with a dog or monkey.
Nope.
The verb is PASSIVE.
And I prefer the translation “SUBJECT” because it is a more accurate description of what the verse means. Paul is describing to the congregation that withing marriage a wife IS SUBJECT to her husband in a completely involuntary way IN EVERYTHING. Her husband’s decisions and behavior will have a massive impact and affect on her. Like a garden IS SUBJECT to the gardener. If the gardener withholds nourishing and cherishing, the garden will die. Or, as the passage indicates, like parts of a body ARE SUBJECT to one another. They are intimately connected and work together.
I just learned about homeostasis in the human body- how the body regulates. For example, if you are cold, you shiver and that helps warm you. I think the way of understanding Eph 5 which makes the wife responsible to voluntarily submit to her husband IN EVERYTHING ruins homeostasis of the marriage. No longer is she allowed to shiver when his decisions are making her cold, she must abort her natural response to the deprivation in order to let him be first. I submit that that understanding is actually the polar opposite of what Paul/God is describing. Paul/God is saying Wives ARE SUBJECT to their husbands in EVERYTHING. Its a DESCRIPTION not a PREscription. So husbands- if you take her out in the freezing cold with no coat, she’s gonna shiver! That’s homeostasis of the “one flesh” of marriage! And husbands, BTW, you are to LOVE, NOURISH, CHERISH {Greek thalpo=keep warm}
“Personally I dislike both “SUBORDINATE” and “SUBMIT”. I prefer “being subject” in Eph 5:21 and “are subject” in Eph 5:24. IMO, it better conveys the PASSIVE force of the verbs used.”
Personal preferences are fine, but we need to stay in the same grammatical form. “Are subject” is a noun. “Being Subjected” is a verb but one in which one is being acted upon by another; IOW someone else is subjecting you. Hupotassomenoi is a verb in the passive and middle voice. The form of hupotassomenoi is that one is NOT being acted upon, but is acting upon oneself.
More later, I’m out the door.
For those who missed it on the very long initial thread, here is the link where can look up the verb parsing for yourself and verify that the hupotasso verbs in Eph 5:21 and 5:24 are in the PASSIVE VOICE.
http://interlinearbible.org/ephesians/5.htm
and here is the link where you can read about the implication of PASSIVE VOICE (from Wallace and Mounce)
http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/grklnk.html?SUBMIT=Greek+Grammar+Menu
TL,
Its distressing to me that you contradict facts.
“are subject” in Eph 5:21 is a verb
see http://interlinearbible.org/ephesians/5.htm
so will the reader please disregard TL’s invalidating, dismissive comment and take my points at face value.
Thank you.
Mark,
“BDAG translates hypotasso as i’m sure we all know as ’subordinate’”
Please check out in the BDAG under hypotasso, the reference to Clement. You will find that in this citation hupotasso is to submit to a “neighbour.” This is defined as submitting voluntarily out of love. It is certainly not submitting to an authority, because it is to a neighbour.
In addition there is in another place in Greek literature an instance where the king submits to his subjects. It is quite possible for the word hupotasso to not refer to submission to authority.
In fact, Clement, Chrysostom and Calvin all interpreted Eph. 5:21 as mutual submission.
The expression used in Eph. 2:21 “to one another” is explicitly referring to mutual and reciprocal relations.
I personally cannot think of even one of Grudem’s challenges which is not easily disproved.
Cheers
Sue (Suzanne)
Here are more details.
Eph. 5:21
submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.
1 Clement 38.1:
“So in our case let the whole body be saved in Christ Jesus, and let each man be subject (hypotasso) to his neighbor, to the degree determined by his spiritual gift,”
2 Macc 13.23,
”[King Antiochus Eupator] got word that Philip, who had been left in charge of the government, had revolted in Antioch; he was dismayed, called in the Jews, yielded (hypotasso) and swore to observe all their rights, settled with them and offered sacrifice, honored the sanctuary and showed generosity to the holy place.”
However, Grudem writes,
But in spite of all these different forms of submission, one thing remains constant in every use of the word: it is never “mutual” in its force; it is always one-directional in its reference to submission to an authority.
It clearly is mutual in Clement, and it clearly is not in reference to an authority in 2 Maccabees. I don’t find that Dr. Grudem’s research reflects the broad range of Greek usage or patristic exegesis.
Regarding the debate as to whether hypotasso appears in the passive or middle voice, these two forms are identical in most tenses of the Greek verb, and so it is an interpretive choice. Either one could be correct, and it is much to be regretted that most commentaries and Greek resources choose one or the other without indicating the underlying ambiguity.
This is one of the most misunderstood concepts in the Bible, that submission must be to an authority. A husband asserting authority over a wife is …… I restrain myself.
Charis, your construction is fine, I think, but reading it the way you’re reading it leads to a very legitimate question about the text. Paul is addressing the church, telling Christians how to function together. He tells them in the verses just before v. 21 not to get drunk but be filled with the Spirit (definitely passive voice, as we cannot fill ourselves with the Spirit), to sing to one another, to give thanks– and then to “be subject” to one another. These are clearly all actions that Christians are to take. Even though we cannot fill ourselves with the Spirit, we apparently have some role in allowing ourselves to be filled, or Paul would not so instruct us. So if being subject has nothing to do with any action on our part, why is it included as part of a set of instructions?
(Personally, I see the mitigating factor in the wife being submissive “in everything,” as the fact that the husband is supposed to be self-sacrificing for her and raising her up, as Christ sacrificed Himself to make the church “glorious.” She is supposed to be submitting to being made glorious, not to being trampled down– and if he doesn’t, she has a Christian duty to speak to him about his sin– and if he does not listen, to bring witnesses, etc. The bit in 1 Peter about winning him “without a word” does not apply because that’s addressed to wives married to unbelieving husbands.)
I think “be subject” must mean something along the lines of “allow yourselves to be subject,” just as “be filled with the Spirit” must mean “allow yourselves to be filled,” or the passage wouldn’t make sense.
Charis – Is 5:24 Descriptive of wives? Only if you divorce the verse from the surrounding text, especially verse 21-22. 5:18b-21 is absolutely prescriptive: “be filled with the spirit; speaking…singing and making melody…giving thanks…submitting yourselves…” These are not descriptions of what the Ephesians are, they are prescriptions for what Paul wants the Ephesians to do. Verse 5:22 continues the prescription addressing wives specifically. 5:22 is not a description of what wives are, it is a prescription for what Paul wants wives to do. In verse 24, Paul then gives a descriptive example for the wives to follow, but he has not ceased prescribing what he wants the wives to do based on that descriptive example. I disagree that 5:24 in relation to wives is descriptive.
The confusion comes from which form of “to be” the translators insert. YLT uses [are] while others use [be] or [should be]. Which should it be? The precedent from verse 22 makes it obvious. You can’t be both prescribed and described as being subject in the same thought. Since the prescription in verse 22 is clear, the continuing prescription in verse 24 is also clear.
I should add, that Paul’s instructions to men beginning in verse 25 follow the same pattern. He is prescribing what men should do by describing what Christ has done.
Another option is that while v. 21 means “allow yourselves to be subject to one another,” the next use of the word in the phrase “for as the church is subject to Christ, so is the wife to her husband in everything” is indeed a simple statement of fact. Whether simply in ancient culture where husbandly authority was the norm, or in the more spiritual sense in which Charis means it, the wife definitely was in that position without any act of the will on her part. So the meaning would be, “allow yourselves to be subject to one another– wives to your husbands (because you already are subject), and husbands, love your wives in a way that sacrifices yourself to lift her up.” This would not be inconsistent with the logical construction of the passage.
I disagree Kristen. If it is a simple statement of fact, then Paul is asking wives to remain in the authoritarian submission they already are in. How does this then relate to verse 21? Whatever submission is in Paul’s usage here, it is identical for all believers and wives. If vs. 22 is a statement of fact reflecting the cultural submission wives were bound under, then the mutual submission called for in vs. 21 is nonsensical.
Hmm. That’s true enough, Gengwall. And there’s also the very real fact that the church subjected herself to Christ– it is that which sets her apart from the world, which is also subject to Christ but only in the passive sense. So it does make more sense for the construction to be referring to action on the part of the church, and of the wife.
Suzanna wrote a while ago: “The antonym of hypotasso is antitasso”
antitasso is a compund of “align” and “against”
If hypotasso is it’s antonym, then it should be a compound of “align” and “by” or “with”. But it is exclusively deconstructed as “align” and “under”. What gives?
Well, I looked at my handy dandy blueletterbible.org lexicon and what did I find?
hypo means “under” OR “by” and is translated “under”, “BY”, and “WITH” amongst others. So, “under” is not necessarily the only possibility and the other definitions seem to preclude the idea of authority.
It makes much more sense in Ephesians 5:21 to say “aligning yourselves one with another” than it does “aligning yourselves one under another”. (“align with” works in many verses, even those speaking about government – align with the governing authorities, i.e. don’t be an anarchist.) Isn’t it just possible that Paul, who does not even have a military context on the radar here, is applying a much more “side by side” meaning to hypotasso?
“TL, Its distressing to me that you contradict facts.”
Yes, I know how that can be. I need to learn to not post in a hurry. Comes from a desire to do too many things at once.
I totally did not say what was in my mind. Somehow went off sideways. When I get a truly free moment I’ll be back.
Nevertheless, I really don’t accept your interpretation that women are to be helplessly acted upon.
A few hypotasso verses with “align with” instead of “submit”
Romans 8:7 “because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not align itself with the law of God”
Romans 10:3 “For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not align themselves with the righteousness of God.”
Romans 13:1 “Every person is to be aligned with the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.”
James 4:7 “Align therefore with God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you”
It obviously doesn’t work with every verse. The point is that it does work some of the time, even with verses almost always associated with authority. That indicates that hypotasso may have a broader range of meaning than we have been led to believe. Ephesians 5:21 almost certainly assures it.
Gengwall my man, you got it! I found also that hypo is translated “with” and I made the exact same conclusion. The reason is also that for hypo to mean “under” you really need “hyper” which means “over.” “Hypertasso” does not exist in Greek, wherefore “hypotasso” cannot mean “set under.” Incidentally we get the definition “set under” from Latin, I think it is “subicio” but it could another of the sub-words, and it is from here we get the word “submit” with the added meaning “under authority” for “sub” means “under.”
Mark, I wrote a whole chapter on hypotasso and there’s plenty more, especially on 1 Pet 3 etc. Give me a moment and I’ll explain the subject further. Jonathan turns six in two days and I am trying to get his party all set while trying to clean the house for pictures for the realtor, while caring for a baby… you get the point!
Charis, I have still not forgotten about you! I just have too many thoughts going on here. Can you hang on a few more days?
One more thought before I have to go (since Gengwall just posted). Hypotasso is not the only “tasso” word there is. There is epitasso, antitasso, paratasso, etc. there are tons of them and they usually have the meaning of arranging something. For instance when hypotasso is used in the army, it signifies when soldiers are allies, immovable from their position next to each other, when they are fighting an enemy.
In Luke 7:8 for instance “hypotasso” means that the person HAS the authority:
“For I also am a man set (hypotasso) under (hypo) authority, having under (hypo) me soldiers. And I say unto one, `Go’, and he goeth; and to another, `Come,’ and he cometh; and to my servant, `Do this,’ and he doeth it.”
You need the word “hypo” added by itself if you want to make the officer-private connection. “Tasso” has the meaning “to be set” but you cannot be “set under” someone for it would literally mean that you are set under that person’s feet (See Eph 1.21-23 where the enemies are hypotasso (submitted) hypo (under) the feet of Christ.) You can only be “under” (hypo).
I take back the last comment! The centurion is said to “hypo exousian tassomenos.” Lit. under authority set. (Too many “tassos” to keep track of, sorry about that) But this means he is the one who has the authority, for the text can also be read “with authority set.” In Eph 1, however, the enemies are said to have been submitted (hypotasso) under (hypo) the feet of Christ, wherefore Gengwall is correct in that hypotasso, and hypo, can have different meanings depending on the context.
BTW, Mark, I understood your comment on wellgrounded egals. There are lot of people who think they have it all together, but don’t. I’m glad you are here.
Ah, baby didn’t wake up yet, so I have time for one more comment.
Mark, you asked me how I had answered Grudem’s challenge. The answer is very simple: because hypotasso is never the coupled with authority. Even in Rom 13, the PEOPLE are called exousia (authorities), but they are not said to HAVE AUTHORITY, they are called authorities, i.e it is just a way to say government. We are told to submit to the people, i.e. the people who govern the land, not to their authority. Let me explain a bit more. In comps view a wife should submit to the husband because he has authority, but in the case of the government, we are told to submit to the people themselves, not their decisions. I.e. we are told to agree with them, and not resist them (by breaking the law). The rules are common and made by the people, not the government without the people. A judge does not come up with a decision of his own according to his preferences, he uses the law of the land to meet out justice. In the case of a husband, he makes decisions based on his preferences (i.e. where should the family live, eat etc.) unless he makes a joint decision with his wife, in which case we have mutual submission instead of tyranny. And this is where Grudem’s logic fails. If only the husband makes decisions, and if only the wife always obeys regardless of the outcome, it is called tyranny. Tyranny may work, but it is not biblical.
Mark said, “I never said subordination was the same as submit.” (21)
Mark said, “You cannot be in authority and submit to the same person…it’s an oxymoron- because to be submissive means to be subordinate, and to be subordinate excludes the possibility of being in authority over the person you submit to.” (4)
Hmmm!
I want to respond to some other things you said Mark, but I think it is great that we have some other people entering the discussion with different perspectives on hypotasso.. I hope you don’t feel ganged up on Mark!
I still have not hit the road on the bike Mark because I foolishly bought another one, so now I have two, neither of which are going. 🙁
Now, I am going to hypotasso my comment. I wonder who will have authority over it?
Oh, and Mark: isn’t our relationship with God between two persons?
Susanna said:
“The centurion is said to “hypo exousian tassomenos.” Lit. under authority set.”
Susanna, I am here seeing what I think are the two word forms included in “submit,” with the word “authority” inserted in between them.
Doesn’t this render it conclusive that “submit” cannot automatically convey the idea of authority– for if it did, there would be no need to qualify it with the word “authority,” because if the idea were already there, that would make it redundant?
Mark, you said, “I agree submission is something we do. A wife is told to submit to her husband. She has to choose to do it, it cannot be demanded by the husband. God demands it, not the husband. But it is not mutual since the husband is not commanded to submit to his wife, as to the Lord. This is why ‘mutual’ is not effective to communicate what you believe.”
I am glad we both agree that submission is a choice. Your logic following though flies in the face of verse 21 where we (once again for the dummies!) submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
With regards to Webster’s definition, the power is not necessarily in the relationship at all. It says “the power OR will of another”. i.e. there does not have to be power, though there might be. Therefore in Eph 5:22 the wife is not necessarily submitting to any ‘power’, though I think, as we have said before(!) culturally the husband had power. We know that. Peter also suggests that as the man is the stronger vessel he needs to use his strength appropriately when dealing with his wife the weaker vessel. This too could be the power. Surely the question you are yet to answer is whether or not the power is God ordained authority over the wife by the husband.
You said, “I liked your nose wiping, ear washing analogy. Let’s expand it further…are they the same thing? As the dictionary defined mutual, it is done to others, what A does to B, B does to A. So if you wish to stick with the term ‘mutual’, you must by definition say it is identical.”
Not sure if you have been listening Mark despite your clean ears! What is it that we are saying A does to B, and B does to A? Submitting. A submits and B submits. You never answered my questions, can we have mutual love? Will this look the same for a mother loving her child and a child loving her mother? Love is lived out in actions, just as submission is. If you don’t want to use the word “mutual”, then don’t, but it is not going to help you in regard to the fact that two people can submit to each other. Sue, I think it was, has given examples of hypotasso being used when authority is not at play.
You said, “I might be reading you wrong but you almost sound like a comp. You agree authority exists, yet the one in authority is to serve (though you use submit) the other. That is comp is it not.”
Yes, I have said right from my very first comment under Cheryl’s original post that authority exists. For the Ephesians their culture dictated that a husband had authority over his wife. The question all along is whether or not the authority is God given and therefore valid. Paul has told us all to submit, and goes to the trouble to make it explicit to husbands, parent and masters that they should all treat their wives/children/slaves by meeting their needs – dare I say submitting. He also goes to the trouble to say that wives/children/slaves should remember that they should still meet the needs of their husbands/parents/masters. The question (once again!) is does this mean that Paul is saying that men have a God given authority over their wives? Do masters have a God given authority over their slaves Mark?
You said, “One last point in relation to hypotasso. You need to remember that it is not an adjective or noun, so things like meekness and humility are not the best descriptions…we need to look at the verbal form.”
True, but the noun form can still be useful to display relevant meaning. You can be meek and humble you know!
Mark, no one is doubting that their was authority in the relationship between a husband and a wife in Ephesians. The question that needs to be answered is whether or not that authority is God given or culturally driven. That was poetic. No one is questioning whether or not a wife should submit to her husband, but rather whether or not Paul’s purpose is to make the husband the boss.
Mark,
You see ‘egals’ don’t deny that Eph.5:22 says, “wives to your own husbands,” we just don’t believe it negates verse 21 “and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.” We allow both verses to stand.
However, we don’t read the words “wives to your own husbands” as *”husbands not to your wives”* …because that’s not what it says.
“Oh, and Mark: isn’t our relationship with God between two persons?”
This is the WHOLE point! Why do women need a layer between them and their Savior? Why are they not allowed to fully mature in spiritual things but must be “under” the authority of another male believer? This would mean our spiritual growth would be hindered to whatever our “authority” is. This seeks to replace the Holy Spirit in our lives. It is simply not spiritually logical from the point of view of the Cross which tore the veil in two. Women are “adult” believers. Not perpetual children who must have a daddy figure.
There is no way our scriptures teach this. It is simply very bad translating. The translators were not inerrant. But the Word is. That is a major reason we need the indwelling Holy Spirit to illuminate the truth in the Word to us. Otherwise women are not really a full participating part of the “priesthood”. And some folks want us to believe that only men get some sort of special anointing that women cannot have. Or if they do, they must supress it or it will be sin. Insidious@! Satan loves this.
Kristen, you asked:
“Doesn’t this render it conclusive that “submit” cannot automatically convey the idea of authority– for if it did, there would be no need to qualify it with the word “authority,” because if the idea were already there, that would make it redundant?”
The phrase you mentioned “hypo exousian tassomenos” is not the same as “hypotasso.” Hypotasso is a compound word, whereas tasso (be set) and hypo (under/with) can be used separately and in the case of the phrase mentioned it signigfies the person himself is invested with authority. But you are right that hypotasso does not signify subjection to authority for it is never coupled with authority. If hypotasso is the antonym of authority we will have a huge problem with these verses in particular:
Rom 13:1-4
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever has authority over the authority has authority over the ordinance of God, and those who have authority over will bring judgment on themselves.
Dave
You sound like a hoarder with your bikes…you are spending too much time on blogs and not on your bikes!
Let me try to be a bit clearer. Submission is a choice, i.e we choose to be humble and meek. But that is far different than saying I ‘submit’ to a 12 year old boy. I do not submit to a 12 year old boy because he is not in authority over me. I will serve him or be ‘submissive’ but not submit or ‘yield to his superior force’. This is the crux of the matter, distinguishing between an adjective and a verb, especially in light of the verbal use in Ephesians 5.
The difference between the husband/wife paradigm and the slave/master is that the former is directly related to the Christ/church analogy. So I believe Paul allowed for the cultural custom of slavery and told servants to submit, but in terms of the wife’s submission, to say it was only a ‘cultural’ thing and not a binding condition, would mean that the church/Christ analogy is only cultural at Ephesus. So if you wish to continue to draw a parellel between slavery and the marriage, you must explain how the two are connected culturally only. This is the fundamental difference- the wife is told to submit as the church is told to submit to Christ- it’s a lasting ordinance until the second coming. The whole slavery argument never works Dave, I would have thought you would know that, unless of course you wish to show me where the slave/master paradigm is linked with Church/Christ!
No I wouldn’t describe it as ‘mutual love’ because it’s not mutual. You can say the act of love is mutual but the love itself is not mutual, it is different. This is the same point I brought out about the term ‘mutual submission’, when what you really mean is ‘mutual submitting’ i.e. the verbal action. To submit requires to yield to a power or authority. How can it be mutual when one is over the other?
Lydia,
I wonder if you feel like the church leaders are also a layer between you and God? I’m not saying the husband is the ‘high priest’ so to speak of the wife, not at all. Just that he is the head of his wife and she should submit to him.
I don’t understand why you think an authority figure over you is a ‘layer’ spiritually between you and God. We all have authority over us, but that does not mean I am any less spiritual than that authority figure.
Susannah (50)
So with your reasoning God is not In authority over us…am I hearing you correct? So although we are told to submit to God, it’s not authoritative because we are not told to submit to God’s ‘authority’- is that essentially your argument? You follow this logic into Eph 5 and say the husband is not in authority because the wife is told to submit to him, not his authority
Mark, you wrote: “So if you wish to continue to draw a parellel between slavery and the marriage, you must explain how the two are connected culturally only. This is the fundamental difference- the wife is told to submit as the church is told to submit to Christ- it’s a lasting ordinance until the second coming. The whole slavery argument never works Dave, I would have thought you would know that, unless of course you wish to show me where the slave/master paradigm is linked with Church/Christ!”
Hey Mark, do you remember what Paul used to call himself? The slave of God. What did he call his co-workers? Co-slaves. Hence you have the problem in that the Church/Christ relationship is depicted also in the terms master/slave. But that’s not all of it. We are also called living stones of a building, Christ being the headstone (as in a pyramid); we are also his body, Christ being the head; and we are called a family, Christ being the big brother. I.e. the Bible uses more than just the marriage metaphor to describe the relationship between Christ/Church wherefore your argument fails. Get this point: the comparison in Eph 5 is only used to enforce the idea of unity.
Husband as hihg priest of his home? Totally Roman idea. The Pater Familias used to be the high priest of the cult of the ancestors, worshipped at the domestic altar.
Gengwell,
In your definitions of ‘hypo’ I wonder if what you have said is the meaning for verbs only or have you included nouns etc. Also what does your lexicon say about the ‘case’ of the subject or object in order to give the proper definition.
So in James 4 we are told to ‘align with’ (not submit under or to) God in the sense that he does not have authority over us…correct?
This is all becoming hysterical! How far must we go to re-invent Biblical teaching.
Regarding your last point “Isn’t it just possible that Paul, who does not even have a military context on the radar here, is applying a much more “side by side” meaning to hypotasso?”
My response: yeah maybe, if we want to put our selves on a level par with the creator of the world, the creator of us, the sustainer of all things, and say that we are not under His authority. Sure I can accept this novel interpretation, if I thought I was God.
I guess the next argument will be, that Eph 5:21 uses the ‘align with’ and then Paul switches with Christ to ‘submit under’- I can see where this is leading. Paul just loves to be confusing like this doesn’t he!
Susannah,
You still skirt around the issue, we are talking about hypotasso and it’s relationship to slave/master, wife/husband, Christ/church. Your little side arguments are meaningless.
We all agree much more imagery is used to show our relationship to Christ. But never once is the corrolation between slave/master and Christ/church drawn based on the verb hypotasso.
If we stuck with the relevant topic that would help. As much as this hurts egalitarians it’s the truth. PLease ‘align with’ the relevant argument that Dave has proposed.
Sue,
Re Maccabees…
I would assume Grudem would say something like this…it doesn’t respond to his question. He is asking when one PERSON hypotasso’s to another it is always one directional. The maccabee reference is not an example of this. It is a yielding to the ‘rights’ (observances etc) not to the Jews themselves.
Clement may be a good case for you. When i get a chance i will look into it more in the context.
Thanks
Mark, you said, “You sound like a hoarder with your bikes…you are spending too much time on blogs and not on your bikes!”
I only have two bikes though. I once had three…though I think I might have had four at one stage. Or was it five, I forget. But you are right, I am spending too much time on blogs!
You said, “Let me try to be a bit clearer. Submission is a choice, i.e we choose to be humble and meek. But that is far different than saying I ‘submit’ to a 12 year old boy. I do not submit to a 12 year old boy because he is not in authority over me. I will serve him or be ‘submissive’ but not submit or ‘yield to his superior force’. This is the crux of the matter, distinguishing between an adjective and a verb, especially in light of the verbal use in Ephesians 5.”
So, you are saying you can be submissive, but that you can’t submit – that they are fundamentally different. I do not follow you. How is it different…dictionary definitions please!
Mark, you said, “So if you wish to continue to draw a parellel between slavery and the marriage, you must explain how the two are connected culturally only. This is the fundamental difference- the wife is told to submit as the church is told to submit to Christ- it’s a lasting ordinance until the second coming. The whole slavery argument never works Dave, I would have thought you would know that, unless of course you wish to show me where the slave/master paradigm is linked with Church/Christ!”
But the slave/master paradigm is linked with Christ and the church. Paul says, “And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favouritism with him.”
Slaves are also told to serve their masters like they are slaves of Christ. Paul has linked both marriage and slavery to our relationship with Jesus AND in verse 21 he links our relationship with everyone in the body of Christ with Jesus when he asks us to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Mark, you said, “No I wouldn’t describe it as ‘mutual love’ because it’s not mutual. You can say the act of love is mutual but the love itself is not mutual, it is different.”
I really must disagree! It is the love itself that is mutual. The act (how the loved is manifested in words/action/attitudes) might not be though. You have it around the wrong way IMHO. But like I say, don’t use the term mutual if you do not want. In fact Mark, I will submit to your assertion that it is the wrong word (though you are not in authority over me), and from now on I will call it “complementary submission”. I hope this is cool. I might call it “CS” for short. Or “Comp Sub”. Or “Sub Comp”. No, that doesn’t sound very good…
Pinklight,
This will be my last comment for a while.
Gal 5:13 is a prime example of the husbands role as husband. The husband is called to love his wife like Christ did the Church. IN Gal we are told to ‘through love serve one another’, so yes i would through love serve my wife. This is a perfect example of how servant leadership applies both for the husband but more generally the whole church. Our love motivates our service (well at least it should).
But note this verse says nothing about husbands being ‘hypotasso’ to their wives. Serving is not the same as being subject.
Dave my friend,
You are streching things are little thin don’t you think. Eph 5:24 says, ‘now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands’- this is a tight link.
this never appears with the slave/master paradigm- not once. Sure slaves are told to obey their masters as they would Christ (6:5) which is similar to 5:22, but the relationship between slave/master is never linked to the relationship of church/Christ as the husband/wife is. This is pure facts we are dealing with, nothing else. The submission of wife/Christ, and slave/Christ is similar but again the relationship of Church/Christ is not.
Are you willing to say that the Christ/Church command is only cultural? If not, why not?
Dave,
call it ‘mutual submitting’ since that is what you are trying to communicate is it not- the verbal action of ‘submitting’ not the adjectival description of submission.
“He is asking when one PERSON hypotasso’s to another it is always one directional. The maccabee reference is not an example of this. It is a yielding to the ‘rights’ (observances etc) not to the Jews themselves.”
Clearly, in Eph. 5:21 and in Clement it is NOT one directional. No exegete in history suggested that Eph. 5:21 was one directional until Grudem. Not the most traditional and patriarchal. This notion that “one another” means unidirectional submission is a unique interpretation made popular by complementarians and completely unsupported by any Greek grammarian, or any historic commentary.
I do not see why a woman should bow to an exegesis that came into style after she was born. Why do men think that women should be at the whim of every exegetical folly that men can make up. I am insulted by Grudem’s exegesis.
Don’t you realise that believing that “one another” really means the women submit to men, is something that a kindergarten child would not accept.
I do feel that anyone who promotes this kind of exegesis is insulting the intelligence of the person they are talking to. =
Hey Mark, have you forgotten about 1 Cor 7:22?
“For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ’s slave.”
Seems to me that the analogy slave/master is also used by Church/Christ although in the sense of freedom, not oppression.
Can I ask you something? Where in the Bible do we find how the church submits to Christ? Where is it spelled out, using the word hypotasso?
Mark, you wrote: “But note this verse says nothing about husbands being ‘hypotasso’ to their wives. Serving is not the same as being subject.”
I am sure the first century Roman slave owner thougth that serving was the same as being a subject, and it seem Jesus thought so too.
Matt 20:27-28
And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave– just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Unless… subjection is not the subject of Eph 5 and serving is in which case both the husband and wife serve and submit allelon (one another)
Dave, tell me: if the description of a relationship in which one always obeys and the other commands is tyranny, and the description of a relationship between parties in which both obey and command is democracy, what’s in between?
Well, I am going to add my thoughts into the mix, but since I am the blog owner, I did a new post on my view. http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2010/06/02/submission-and-origin-of-authority/
In the new post I challenge Mark and other complementarians to give us examples of how their authority is lived out over their wives in a one-way authority/submission relationship.
Mark said,
“Are you willing to say that the Christ/Church command is only cultural?”
No– I don’t agree with the “only cultural” idea– that we can ignore some portions of scripture because they’re only cultural. Instead, I believe that in every passage, we are to take into account the shared cultural assumptions of writer and audience, so that we can understand and obey the principle being conveyed, that the original audience would have understood.
So– the idea that the church is to Christ more like a wife is to a husband than a slave is to a master, is a beautiful, timeless teaching that I would never seek to circumvent. Nevertheless, the analogy cannot be taken too far. Look what happens if we apply the analogy strictly across the board in Ephesians 5:25-27:
Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for it. Even so the husband ought to give himself for his wife. Ok so far, right? But going on: Christ gave Himself that He might sanctify and cleanse the church. Therefore husbands also ought to consider themselves like Christ, capable of sanctifying and cleansing their wives. (Yes, I have seen kind of thinking in some forms of complementarianism!) As Christ presented to Himself a glorious church, without spot or wrinkle, holy and blameless, so it is the husband’s job to present to himself a glorious wife, without spot or wrinkle, holy and blameless. The wife, then, isn’t really Christ’s, she’s her husband’s– and only Christ’s as she relates to him. Frankly– yuck– and I don’t believe for a moment that you would take the analogy this far.
Clearly the church/Christ comparison only goes so far, and to take it further is idolatry. The wife is to submit to the husband as the church does to Christ. Does this mean that the husband is to the wife as Christ is to the church in every way? Clearly not! The husband is not the savior, sanctifier, or redeemer of the wife. The husband is not her god. I’m sure we can agree on these things.
So– how far should we actually take the analogy? I suggest that we take it only as far as Paul took it: the husband is to love the wife and give himself up for her, nourish and cherish her, treat her as he treats his own body. The wife is to submit herself to her husband in everything, that she might be loved, lifted up, nourished and cherished. Not a hint is spoken of her being led or commanded, or of the husband getting the final say, here.
So– what part of Christ’s actions towards the church are shown in THIS passage for husbands to emulate? Does this passage talk about Christ leading the church? No. Does it talk about Him giving commands to the church? No. Does it talk about His authority over the church? No. It talks about His giving Himself up for the church. The readers would remember the abhorrent criminal’s death of the cross, in ways that we often miss through familiary. They would understand that Christ’s giving Himself up for the church was in every way an act of submission. He submitted like a lamb who opens not His mouth, to people who wanted to kill Him. He said He had the power to ask the Father for a legion of angels, but He refused to exercise that power. Instead He was like a lamb to the slaughter. He did this to bring the church up towards Himself, so that she could have pure fellowship with Him. For husbands in a culture where women were considered very little above animals, the idea was radical– go down to where your wife is stuck, and give yourself to raising her towards yourself.
Mark, you said, “You are streching things are little thin don’t you think.”
No, I don’t think so. The passage uses the following logical links with each relationship being linked to Christ.
Submit to one another out of reverance for Christ.
Wives submit to husbands as the church to Christ.
Husbands love wives as Christ loved the church.
Children obey parents in the Lord.
Fathers don’t exasperate children but instruct them in the Lord.
Slaves obey earthly masters as you would Christ (your heavenely master).
Masters be a master who remembers your common master – Jesus.
The passage shows the same logic through out. Now, you tell me where in the passage it says explicitly that the husband/wife relationship is different, not cultural but God ordained hierarchy. All the relationships are linked with Christ – how is the husband wife one different?
Hi Susanna! You said, “Dave, tell me: if the description of a relationship in which one always obeys and the other commands is tyranny, and the description of a relationship between parties in which both obey and command is democracy, what’s in between?”
I am not sure if I am following you. I am not sure if I would describe democracy quite like that, nor what something in between would look like. I assume it relate to something I have been saying, but not sure what. Perhaps I am a bit slow?
“I wonder if you feel like the church leaders are also a layer between you and God? I’m not saying the husband is the ‘high priest’ so to speak of the wife, not at all. Just that he is the head of his wife and she should submit to him.
I don’t understand why you think an authority figure over you is a ‘layer’ spiritually between you and God. We all have authority over us, but that does not mean I am any less spiritual than that authority figure.”
Mark, you seem to be stuck on this authority thing.
From a spiritual perspective what does it mean to you? That those with churchy titles are always right and must be obeyed? Like Ted Haggard? Jimmy Swaggart? They both had authority titles.
There are some very evil people out there who abuse their perceived “Authority”. Are you allowing for the fact it is ok NOT to submit to them. If so, then why? If someone has enough discernment to know better then why the focus on authority?
Jesus Christ is the authority. we are to want all believers to grow and mature…grow in Holiness. That means they might just grow spiritually PAST the perceieved authority.
Instead of focusing on “authority” why don’t you do as Paul in 1 Corin 4 and describe yourself and men as servants…actually underrowers…the lowest level of rowers on a ship that were usually slaves. Why do you focus on what you perceive as authority? Which is really the lowliest servant of all?
Christianity is about humility and putting others first. Not about having authority over other believers. Elders are to be the most humble of all. They are certainly not like Diotrephes who obviously demanded to be followed and obeyed.
Why not give us an example of how YOU think a wife must submit. Where is the line drawn that she should NOT obey her perceived authority. Is the wife allowed to teach the husband anything the Holy Spirit has illuminated to her in scripture or is that wrong? If he disagrees what must she do? Suppress it?
The problem I see is that comps take metaphors too far. For example, pastor is shepherd. So that means we must stay dumb sheep who always follow the pastor who is only a human. Thjat is taking a metaphor too far. You take a metaphor about love in 1 Eph 5 and now women must ACT like a church. And you must be Jesus? Her Savior?
Dave, I was asking what models of authority-obedience there are. There’s tyranny, in which one always commands and it is for life, and there is democracy in which some command, but the “some” changes regularly and the rules are made by all. I know there is oligarchy, aristocracy etc, but these are all similar to tyranny. Do you know of any other model in which authority-obedience comes to play? Which one of these is used in the analogy of Christ/Church?
Mark – “So in James 4 we are told to ‘align with’ (not submit under or to) God in the sense that he does not have authority over us…correct?…”
No – in the sense that the text is not talking about God’s authority over us. Why should we introduce it into the text? There are scads of texts in the Bible, especially in the OT, where God is seen as a side by side partner with us, especially in contexts where we resisting some enemy. This is especially true when we are resisting the Devil. What does God’s authority over us have to do with reisiting the Devil? Nothing. Scripture informs us: “if God is with me, who can stand against me”. The way we get God “on our side” is to align with Him.
Mark – “I guess the next argument will be, that Eph 5:21 uses the ‘align with’ and then Paul switches with Christ to ‘submit under’- I can see where this is leading. Paul just loves to be confusing like this doesn’t he!”
That would be your argument, not mine. My point was that “align with” makes much more sense for 5:21 than “align under”, and Paul would be consistent in 5:22. And yes, I believe the church aligns with Christ, although it certainly aligns under Him as well in some contexts. The question we need to ask is if “marriage” is such a context. I don’t believe it is.
Mark – “My response: yeah maybe, if we want to put our selves on a level par with the creator of the world, the creator of us, the sustainer of all things, and say that we are not under His authority. Sure I can accept this novel interpretation, if I thought I was God.”
My friend – you seem to be like other comps here who think that Christ and God have only one relational paradigm with humans, and that one paradigm is the authoritarian one. That simply isn’t the case. Stop putting words in our mouths by saying that we are contending that God “never” has authority over us. That isn’t what we are saying at all. What we are saying is that in the marrital paradigm, authority is not even in view. It is a reciprocal, equal, unified, “one flesh” relationship.
“…This is all becoming hysterical! How far must we go to re-invent Biblical teaching.”
I might give the retort – “How far must we go to reinvent Greek to support our biblical teaching”.
Mark, let me begin by saying that I understand where you come from. I was a comp for 16 years and I argued exactly the same way as you do, and I had even more of a take-no-prisoners attitude about it. But as I began to challenge my beliefs, I could no longer sustain them. For example, where does the Bible EVER explain how the church is to submit to Christ? It doesn’t. Comps simply assume that it is found in Eph 1 where Christ is portrayed as the having his enemies under his feet. Surely you agree that the church is not an enemy and that we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places and that he is the head of the body, the church? The only place where the NT mentions hypotasso in the context of the church/God is Jas 4.
“Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the Scripture saith in vain, “The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy”? But He giveth more grace; therefore He saith, “God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.” Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners, and purify your hearts, ye doubleminded.”
In this passage, as in Rom 8 where the law of God is concerned, the contrast is made between enmity and friendship. The believers had become the enemies of God when they were friends with the world through pride. James wishes them to submit to God, i.e. become HIS FRIENDS (as Abraham was called, and Jesus called his disciples) instead of remaining his enemies. How is this done? By drawing near to God and resisting the Devil. Is it God’s authority the believers are told to recognize? No. It is his love, for he is said to give grace to the humble, and grace is given only through love; mercy is given through justice (i.e. mercy triumphs over justice, but ” the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.” (Titus 2.11)) So, you see, it is God’s love that is the context in Jas 4 as is the love of Christ in Eph 5. Paul wishes the married couples to walk in love as Christ loved us (which is true of all Chrisitians, Eph 5:1-2) by dying for us when we did not deserve it. This is the greatest love of all (Rom 5: some would die for a friend, but God died for his enemies, for while we were still sinners, we were enemies of God). You do not need authority to die out of love, all you need is – love.
Just out of curiosity, does everything in Christendom have to be done by the book (Bible)?
Or can we exercise our God-given spark of divinity and cultivate it through reason and common sense in order to serve the common good on both micro and macro levels?
Well, Greg, I would say everything has to be done in accordance with The Book. But The Book doesn’t necessarily cover everythign we do. Can you be more specific in the context of Eph 5?
Greg, a lot depends on whether the expression of Christianity is Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant mainline, Protestant evangelical, etc. Protestants, and especially evangelicals, are “Sola Scriptura,” meaning that they consider the Bible their sole authority on faith and practice. The conversation here is pretty much evangelical Protestant in tone. Reason and common sense are important, but God’s inspiration as given in Scripture is primary– though we must, as a matter of course, use our own reason and common sense to help our interpretation of inspired Scripture.
Getting back to the issue of whether authority of husbands is a God-given mandate in Ephesians 5:
Understanding the underlying cultural assumptions can be very important in helping us see what’s missing in this passage, which the original audience could not have helped noticing, but which we tend to overlook.
Here’s a quote from Michael Kruse in The Kruse Kronicle, about the ancient world’s household codes:
http://krusekronicle.typepad.com/kruse_kronicle/2007/07/household-the-h.html
“The ancient Greeks saw the household as the primary institution through which order was kept in society. To promote effective household management Greek sages would offer their advice to the paterfamilias on household management. These discourses came to be known as the “household codes” or “household tables” (and sometimes the German haustafel.) Aristotle’s household instructions (fourth century B.C.E.) in Book I of Politics are among the most commonly referenced of the household codes. Included in the codes are usually instructions about how the paterfamilias should manage his wife, his children and his slaves. There is often wisdom given about how to manage wealth. Most codes articulate the importance of the paterfamilias dutifully fulfilling his role for the good of society. Some sages advocated an authoritarian approach and others a more benevolent demeanor but whatever their take was on style, they were unified in their conviction that the paterfamilias was obligated to rule his household for the good of society.”
When I quoted from 1 Peter 5:1-5 earlier, I couldn’t help noticing the specific instructions he gave to elders about leading the church: “Be shepherds of God’s flock, serving as overseers. . . not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples. . .”
How easy would it have been for Peter and Paul, both of whom set out lists of household instructions as Kruse describes, to have said something similar for husbands that Peter says to church elders? “Husbands,” he could have said, “guide and lead your wives as those under your care, not lording it over them, but being examples.” The original readers, accustomed to ancient Roman and Greek household codes, would have found the complete absense of any such instruction to be absolutely glaring. And yet we, coming from a society where husbands are not considered patriarchs of their clans, miss this– and we see the opposite of what they saw, which was a omission of any instruction to husbands to take authority, replaced instead by a command to love and act like Christ did in His submissive death!
Great insights Kristen! I heartily agree!
As you pointed out earlier, Kristin, the Christ/Church analogy can only be take so far or it becomes idolatry.
Ephesians doesn’t say that “just like Christ, husbands are capable of saving, sanctifying and cleansing their wives.” So, Paul is most certainly not saying the husband is to the wife as Christ is to the church in *every* way.
Only verse 25 applies to husbands:
“Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it”,
…obviously, verses 26-27, “so that He might make it holy by cleansing it, washing it with water and the word, and might present the church to Himself in all its glory, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind, but holy and without fault,” -DO NOT*.
The passage never even mentions Christ’s authority or His leading of the Church – that is found nowhere in this analogy.
Greg.
Your comment caught my attention.
As far as doing everything “by the book” — sometimes I think christians feel that to be fully living their life for God, as much as is possible, requires embracing every word in their own Bibles (certainly the New Testament) as binding on their lives. For example, churches conduct baby dedications simply because that’s what Mary and Joseph did with Jesus. Does this make it necessary for us? Part of what it means to be a christian? I really don’t think so.
The intense pursuit of God can become the obsessive pursuit of words. Words in “the book” and phrases are parsed to oblivion to the point of losing the point of the message or idea as a whole. Kind of like arguing with someone for so long you can’t even remember what the issue was in the first place. Certainly this is done with many aspects of the complementarian and egalitarian viewpoints.
While is is good to be able to argue one’s point of view if it is being challenged, I can’t help but feel this is all much ado about nothing. We’ve twisted our brains tighter and tighter, impossibly convoluting what is so incredibly obvious and plain: human relationships are most successful when we treat each other the way we want to be treated. Every definition of love and God’s love boils down to this.
I tend to think that we’d all do a much better job of serving the common good on a macro and micro level if we relaxed somewhat and just kept this golden rule principle in the forefront of our minds. We’d certainly have more time and energy for it.
Thank you for your replies Gengwall & Kristen! (#’s 82 & 83)
As far as I can determine from well over 700 comments now (counting the previous thread), it’s largely a question of Biblical interpretation. Aside from the essentials, who has THE right interpretation? Does it even have to have one?
Elastigirl #87~ You wrote:
“…As far as doing everything ”by the book” — sometimes I think christians feel that to be fully living their life for God, as much as is possible, requires embracing every word in their own Bibles (certainly the New Testament) as binding on their lives. For example, churches conduct baby dedications simply because that’s what Mary and Joseph did with Jesus. Does this make it necessary for us? Part of what it means to be a christian? I really don’t think so…”
And some churches will swear up and down that child baptism and dedications are wrong. Thank you for your entire comment Elastigirl! (#87) You have articulated well what I could not at the time.
Paul tells us that we are free to debate and disagree on disputable issues, as long as doctrine is universally upheld (Romans 14, I think). Eph 5 would be a disputable item, I would think, although occassionally someone turns submission into a sin issue or even a salvation issue which makes the passage bleed over into doctrine. Which brings us back to your question, I guess. That is about the time I just give a great big *SIGH*
Susanna, you asked, “Do you know of any other model in which authority-obedience comes to play? Which one of these is used in the analogy of Christ/Church?”
I do not think there is an authority/obedience model that can accurately describe the Christ/church analogy. This is why the NT uses the analogy of a groom and his bride. It is a relationship between two individuals who although remain seperate become one. I think that if we want to link the question to Ephesians then I would point us again to Eph 1:10 and say that the plan is that we will all be in harmony with Christ as the head. We know that head does not equate with authority.
Hierarchalists don’t seem to mention that we will rule with Christ, that we are joint heirs with Christ, that we will one day judge, that we are his friends not his servants. And all this when he has recieved all glory, honour and power. I am not denying Christ’s authority, but for those who love him as they have been loved, authority is not relevant. They are his friends.
Not sure if this answers the question or was what you were after.
I am bowing out of things again for a while…life, sadly, stops for no blog! 🙁
Elastagirl and Greg (#87 & 88) — I am in agreement with you, too. Sometimes endless wrangling over what the Bible says and doesn’t say eclipses simply following Jesus and His command to “love one another, as I have loved you” and “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” The problem, of course, is that when someone finds justification in the Bible to assert the God-given authority of one group over another, and that authority can and has been used to harm a whole group of people, then because the Bible is held to be the sole authority on faith and practice, such claims really must be refuted from the Bible. But I think a really good test of an interpretation is, “Does following this interpretation uphold the command to do unto others as we would have them do unto us? Or does this interpretation bind up a heavy burden to tie upon someone’s back?”
I would really much rather it be the case that this conversation about whether women are born to be under male authority, was unnecessary, because everyone recognized that it was against the law of “do unto others.” If you wouldn’t want someone asserting that they have a God-given right to authority over you, regardless of their calling, character or competence, but simply by the privilege of their birth and the lack of privilege of yours– then do not so assert to someone else!
But unfortunately the conversation is necessary, because as long as some sectors of Christianity assert male privilege, then I must reply to the contrary. It might be different if they’d just keep it to themselves and practice it at home with their own wives (I wouldn’t mind– if it works for them for him to lead and her to follow, and they both feel happy, loved and respected, I have no quarrel), but they must needs tell me how to run my marriage too (or rather, how my husband must run our marriage, since he’s supposed to be the leader– but he wants an equal partner with equal say, and I’m happy to submit!)
Kristen,
i agree with you on the ‘cultural’ relevance of Eph 5. I guess where i would differ is that the one flesh union or ‘mystery’ of Gen 1-3 was a foreshadow of Christ and the Church.
Now the question is, wihtin the Christ/Church model, does auhtority exist. I believe it does. I’m not denying that we are co-heirs with Chirst etc- they are glorious truths, but rather also affirming that we will all bow down and worship Jesus as Lord (Phil 2). The problem i see with the egal system is it seems to neglect the latter issue adn only focus on us being ‘friends’. If you couple this with precise definitions of ‘head’ and ‘submit’ as well as where we sit as creatures and not creators i find it hard to accept that Egalitarianism is a biblical alternative.
So if the original marriage was a foreshadow of Christ/Church, adn authority exists in the church/Christ relatioship, why ought we deny the human relationship is different.
To me, you must either reject that marriage is a reflection of the ‘true’ marriage, or reject that Christ has authority over his church to accept an egal system on Eph 5. I’m not willing to do either since i believe both options are unbiblical.
Gengwell,
Regarding ‘disputable’ issues i think we ought to stick to what Paul allows as disputable. Romans 14 doesn’t intorduce issues like ministry into disputable matters- that is something we often do.
Now i don’t know where i sit on the gender debate= doctrinal issue, but i don’t think it is helpful to classify it into a category that Paul never does. Of course though, it will always be difficult to discern what is doctinal and what isn’t in modern debates.
I agree whole heartedly with you that scripture has to be the determining factor.
Cheers
Dave, I merely wanted to see if you had an insight into an arrangement that I did not. I.e. it cannot be tyranny (one always making the decisions), therefore it must be democracy (making decisions together as a team).
Mark, you wrote: “To me, you must either reject that marriage is a reflection of the ‘true’ marriage, or reject that Christ has authority over his church to accept an egal system on Eph 5. I’m not willing to do either since i believe both options are unbiblical.”
I dare you to read Eph 5 without reading authority into the text. I dare you to read the whole entire Bible without reading authority into the text when it is not explicitly mentioned. Will you accept my dare, or will you go on thinking you got it right? Don’t forget that God does not share his “Godlikeness” with humans, i.e. what God has and is because he is God, is not for humans to take. Either you agree that God has attributes that only he can have, or you make the make the man also divine in that he, but not the woman, can have God-like attributes. But consider also this: does the church not have authority? Did Christ not share his authority with the church? Are we not called the co-workers of God? Are we not able to perform the same as did Christ on earth? Why do you only make the man to be like “Christ” when it was the mission of Christ to make all of us like himself? Paul wrote that all of us ought to imitate Christ. How does it differ when it comes to women? You see the relationship between Christ and the church only in terms of authority-obedience, which is based on the false translations of hypotasso and kephale.
As a last note let me leave you with this:
Two cannot have authority over each other at the same time, but they can both oppose each other.
Two cannot obey each other at the same time, but they can draw near to each other.
If the first mentioned does not fit Eph 5.21 because it is impossible, perhaps the latter does, since it is possible. Incidentally, I did a search through the early church writings today and I found that the latter was precisely what they wrote: We should not oppose each other, or God, but to draw near and remain near. This is the biblical definition of Eph 5.21.
“So if the original marriage was a foreshadow of Christ/Church, adn authority exists in the church/Christ relatioship, why ought we deny the human relationship is different.”
Mark,
If you think Paul’s analogy extends that far, why stop at assuming Christ’s authority over your wife? Why not include everything else Christ does/is in relation to the Church?
Why not include saving, sanctifying and cleansing?
Why not presenting “the wife/church to husband/Himself in all its glory, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind, but holy and without fault?”
Mark – “Now the question is, wihtin the Christ/Church model, does auhtority exist. I believe it does. I’m not denying that we are co-heirs with Chirst etc- they are glorious truths, but rather also affirming that we will all bow down and worship Jesus as Lord (Phil 2). ”
This is the entire problem with your argument. Phil 2 is not a marriage or head/body metaphor. Nowhere in the bible does it say that Christ’s bride will bow down before Him. Christ has many different types of relationships with humanity and they can not be morphed into one all encompassing top-down gierarchy. Eph 5 is one; Phil 2 is an entirely different one. There is no way to draw a parallel between the two. They are describing totally different relational paradigms.
Mark,
You said, “So if the original marriage was a foreshadow of Christ/Church, adn authority exists in the church/Christ relatioship, why ought we deny the human relationship is different.” By which I must assume you mean, “why ought we deny the human relationship is NO different,” because that it IS different, is what I am asserting.
To which I can only reply as I did before. Worship exists in the church/Christ relationship. Why ought we deny the human relationship is no different?
Eternal salvation exists in the church/Christ relationship. Why ought we deny the human relationship is no different?
Resurrection exists in the church/Christ relationship. Why ought we deny the human relationship is no different?
Which means that if we say a husband is to his wife, everything Christ is to the church, then we have the husband as his wife’s god, worthy of receiving her worship, able to save her and resurrect her from the dead.
This has to be as unacceptable to you as it is to me.
Therefore, we have to limit the analogy. The husband/wife relationship cannot have everything the church/Christ relationship has. The only question, then, is how we limit it.
Do we limit it according to our own preconceived notions? If authority has traditionally been assumed between husband and wife, therefore we can extrapolate that this is part of what Paul was talking about? How about the ability of Christ to discipline His church? If He can tell the church at Ephesus in Rev. 2:5 that unless she repents, He will come and take her lampstand from its place (note that in Rev. 1:20 the “lampstand” is identified as the church itself– so Christ is warning the church that she will cease to exist as one of His churches)– can the husband tell his wife how she has displeased him and how he is going to discipline her if she doesn’t repent? Can he tell her he will remove her as his wife unless she does his will?
I hope you will say no. I have seen complementarians who believe husbands have the power to discipline their wives– but there is nothing, anywhere in Scripture, that gives a husband such power. Between Christ and the church, though, such power certainly exists.
So– how far DO we take the church/Christ analogy? I for one absolutely refuse to worship my husband, look to him for salvation, or in any other way treat him as if he were Christ– not for one minute will I commit such a grievous sin!
I suggest we limit the church/Christ analogy to only those things that Paul mentions in the verses where he makes the analogy itself. The husband is said to be “head” in a head-body metaphor with the wife as Christ is in a head-body relationship with the church– and Christ as “head,” according to Eph. 4:15 and Col. 2:9, means the source of nourishment and life– it is a provisionary function. But the passage goes on to speak of Christ as Savior– and the comparison to the husband is not extended into this function. The husband is then told to “love” the wife as Christ loved the church when He “gave Himself” for her. Then it goes on to say that Christ sanctifies and cleanses and washes the church, and presents her to Himself– again, the comparison to the husband does not extend here. Then it says the husband should “nourish and cherish” the wife as his own body, just as the Lord does the church. But NOT ONCE does it say the husband should lead his wife as Christ leads the church, or that the husband should command his wife as Christ commands the church. Salvation and cleansing are at least mentioned– but only as being Christ’s job, not the husband’s. Authority isn’t mentioned in this passage at all.
When the Scriptures make a comparison like church/Christ to wife/husband, we must be careful, or we’ll end up idolaters. We must be careful to add nothing to what the passage actually says– not even authority.
I agree with Kay, Mark, why do you not extend the comparison to the forgiveness of sins, healing, raising from the dead, intercessory prayer, exorcism, etc. Why stop at authority, especially since you want to be consistent in your theology?
I see that we all came to the same conclusion independently. Must be the Spirit at work here…:)
“How about the ability of Christ to discipline His church? If He can tell the church at Ephesus in Rev. 2:5 that unless she repents, He will come and take her lampstand from its place (note that in Rev. 1:20 the “lampstand” is identified as the church itself– so Christ is warning the church that she will cease to exist as one of His churches)– can the husband tell his wife how she has displeased him and how he is going to discipline her if she doesn’t repent?”
There is even a worse Rev vs. that I have heard used to justify domestic discipline (i.e. physical discipline of the wife).
Rev 3:19 “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.”
So Mark, NN, since Christ can physically discipline those He “loves”, and the husband/wife relationship is identical in every way to the Christ/Church relationship in your view, is it ok for husbands to spank and otherwise physically discipline thier wives if, in the husband’s (Christ perfected) view, she is being sinful?
Susanna,
That’s one of the mysteries of hierarchists.
“Soft comps”, like Mark & NN, are ‘picking and choosing’ what they want included after what’s clearly given in verse 25 (Eph.5).
The full blown neo-Patriarchists are actually being more consistant in their theology. <–that is not an endorsement of any kind!
gengwall@100,
I hadn’t thought about that one in a while – made me feel like ‘barfing’ all over again!!
“The full blown neo-Patriarchists are actually being more consistant in their theology. <–that is not an endorsement of any kind!”
LOL – nor would I mistake it for one. But best you make it clear.
I mentioned waaaaaaaay back in the original post that the problem for comps who want to extend Christly authority to the husband even though it isn’t in view in Eph 5 is that you have to take a “in for a penny, in for a pound” approach. Either Christ/Church as a marriage is just one form of Christ/Church relationship and is limited to the parameters outlined in the actual Christ/Church marriage passages, or Christ/Church is a single, all encompassing relationship which always contains every parameter regardless of context. You can’t have it both ways.
gengwall,
Yes, you certainly did – directed at Mark, wasn’t it? Wow, what a bunch of rabbit trails the redefining of ‘authority’ and showcasing of Ph.D.s made!
Actually, NN I think. Mark hadn’t joined in yet. But really, it was simply directed at the comp argument as a whole.
Dave, I hope you are still here for I found the answer to my question. It was actually Ira, my husband, who gave it to me in the car today. I asked him what existed between tyranny (one makes all the rules) and democracy (rules are made by the people) and he said, “It’s communism. You know, the people elect the government, which then can turn around and shoot you, if it wants to.” This is a pretty good description of complementarism too for the woman chooses whom she wishes to marry but through the marriage she gives him the right to spiritually execute (meaning he can kill her personality through excessive demands) her if he wants to. I wonder what ultra-conservative comps would say about this one…
I agree Kay. BTW, the Christian Patriarchy movement (quiverers, or something like that) has noticed the contradictions and advocate therefore a full-blown return to the era before the Industrial Revolution when women were home and obedient. But here’s what they have not thought about: the women may have been home, but they contributed financially, which is not true of the modern Patriarchy arrangement. I.e. then the woman was important and a man had to marry if he wanted to survive, but the modern arrangement has eliminated the financial aspect and demands obedience without the balancing act of both contributing financially and the presence of servants, which used to raise the wife’s status. No wonder then that the daughters have had to fill the gap since the wife, overworked with multiple children and without the domestic help her greatx10-mother had, is not able to serve her husband the way he wants to be served.
Although quiverers are certainly conservative and traditional, I am not sure that strict authoritarian patriarchy is a talking point of the movement. Maybe, but that hasn’t been my experience in discussions with them.
You may be thinking of Christian Reconstructionists, who want to return society to Old Testament law and family structure.
And lest we forget, Domestic Discipline movement, as mentioned before, which maintains that the husband is not only in authority over his wife but is charged with disciplining her, even physically, to help her in her Christian walk.
gengwall@110,
Well, I’d luv to, but you brought it up again…excuse me for a moment while I take some Pepto…
Sorry Kay. Just being thorough. Soft comps would like to forget that there are these really abusive movements out there but you were absolutely right @101 – it is the abusive groups that are actually consistent in their application of Christ/church to husband/wife. They would view Mark and NN as betraying the patriarchy and acquiescing to us radical feminists.
#100 gengwall,
That is quite a thought! It is completely against the idea of sacrificial love, yet when one usurps God’s authority and claims it for their own “right”, then who could stop such a one from physical or emotional abuse when they are the highest authority in their home? And in many lands pagan husbands have already claimed this right and been responsible for the death of their wives. They don’t see anything wrong with having full authority of life or death for another mature human being.
Mark,
Since I assume that you are still reading here, even though the hard questions that we have been asking haven’t been answered, I recommend that you try. It will be a good exercise for you and helpful for the dialog.
Also I sent you a couple of emails regarding the private conversation you wanted to have with me. If you haven’t looked at them, you may want to check them out for I think you will find my reasoning quite interesting.
Cheerio.
Gengwall, there is a great book out there called
‘Quiverfull, Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement” by Kathryn Joyce, which outlines how the quiverers are heavily into the concept of female submission etc. You are right though that not all those who reject birth control are as extreme, but it as Joyce noticed, these two thoughts are increasingly being identified as one.
Hi everyone,
I fail to see the tough questions posed Cheryl. I have only extended the analogy as far as the Bible does. No, a wife should not worship her husband. What everyone failed to mention (especially Kristen in her thread) was that wives are told to submit as the Church does to Christ. So does submit give any indication that auhtority exists. As far as i know, all lexicons say yes. Is it foreign to Paul’s train of thought, no it is not. So i have only ever extended the analogy as far as Paul and the grammar definitions. Some of you egalitarians do a good job at trying to discredit those who disagree agree with you. But as far as i can tell, two themes are common, 1) i don’t answer supposed tough questions (although they never seem to directly relate to the topic) and 2) you introduce and extend what i have said to things i have never said.
So although you want to discredit my position by introducing all these other extremities that i have not mentioned, let me be clear. I’m focusing only on what the wife is told to do, in the same way the church is told to do in Eph 5. If you wish to continue discussing this with me that is fine, but stick to the topic. Don’t attach foreign labels and concepts.
Susannah,
I can’t understand your hermeneutic. You only accept authority if it is the ‘big’ idea of the passage it seems. I find this biblical interpretation hard to follow because i’m sure you don’t say ‘anger’ is the big idea of Ephesians 6, yet i’m sure you would agree with Paul that Father’s should not provoke their children to anger. You can’t re-interpret every word in a passage like that. So i dare you, to actually accept the Biblical words for what they mean, and not do exegetical backflips to dismiss authority.
P.S Cheryl have you responded to my comment about Ryan’s alternative? I would like to know how many think Eph 5 is ‘cultural’ (in that the husband had authority in that culture but it was not God ordained) and how many don’t? I know Dave thinks it’s cultural, and Kristen not. ANyone else wish to add!
Cheryl,
It doesn’t appear that i recieved your emails
Mark,
I do think the husband had authority in that culture and it was not God-ordained. I’m not sure why you think I said otherwise. Perhaps if you remind me what I said that you interpreted that way?
I think I found it.
I said, “No– I don’t agree with the ‘only cultural’ idea– that we can ignore some portions of scripture because they’re only cultural. Instead, I believe that in every passage, we are to take into account the shared cultural assumptions of writer and audience, so that we can understand and obey the principle being conveyed, that the original audience would have understood.
So– the idea that the church is to Christ more like a wife is to a husband than a slave is to a master, is a beautiful, timeless teaching that I would never seek to circumvent.”
—
So what I said was that I didn’t agree with dismissing portions of the Bible as “only cultural.” I also said, though, that we needed to take the shared cultural assumptions into account– so we didnt mistake them for commands of God. That’s different from dismissing the entire passage as not applying to us anymore. What I advocate is finding the principle being conveyed by the passage, after we understand the cultural assumptions for what they were– and following that principle.
Mark,
You wrote,
“So does submit give any indication that auhtority exists. As far as i know, all lexicons say yes.”
I can only ask if you have some reason for ignoring my comments. I have already mentioned the fact that BDAG refers to 1 Clement, where Christians are enjoined to submit each to their neighbour. I am unaware that neighbours had authority over each other.
Mark said,
“What everyone failed to mention (especially Kristen in her thread) was that wives are told to submit as the Church does to Christ. So does submit give any indication that auhtority exists. As far as i know, all lexicons say yes.”
In posts 35 and 36 of this thread, Sue referred you back to BDAG and said that in the case of Clement, “submit” meant “mutual” and therefore did not mean “to authority.”
The mere presence of the word “submit” does not imply authority– I have not seen an adequate refutation of Sue’s points, or evidence that BDAG does not say what she says it does in reference to Clement, or that Clement did not mean “submit to your [equal] neighbor” when that is what he said.
Also, Ephesians 5:21 still says “submit to one another,” and in the next thread Cheryl shows that “one another” always means mutuality.
If I leave out “wives submit to your husbands,” therefore, it’s because I don’t believe it means husbands hold God-ordained authority over wives. That Paul and his readers assumed cultural authority, I do not dispute. That mutual submission was intended by Paul as the way beyond mere cultural authority, to equality in Christ, seems quite clear to me.
Sue,
I never ignored your comment. Let me say it again- all lexicons i have read say that the verb ‘submit’ has authority attached to it. Now you bring up 1 Clement in BDAG, so let me say again what i said to you earlier. It was in the discussion of Grudem’s challenge, and what i told you was that i would need to look at it in more detail when i get a chance because it seems like you might have a case with that one…how is that ignoring you? I directly addressed what you had said.
Nevertheless, does that then mean that when BDAG list ‘subordination’ or ‘subject’ as meanings it forfeits that authority is involved? I don’t think it does, so my point is still the same. That verb according to lexicons denotes authority. We can argue over the one reference you claim is different once i’ve had time to look into it more fully. But please don’t accuse me of ignoring you.
Tell me this Sue…why do you hang onto one non-biblical use of hypotasso as the foundation for your theology? Of course that is provided that your test case fits into the required condition Grudem challenges.
Kristen,
Thanks for clarifying. Let me ask you one question. IF the husband had authority BUT it is only cultural, is Christ’s authority therefore only cultural? OR to put it another way. If a wife is only told to submit in that culture to her husband, is the church only told to submit in that culture? Why or why not? Why is the wife’s submission directly linked to the Church’s submission?
I never said a wife was only to submit to her husband in that culture. I said he only had authority over her in that culture. I agree that wives are to submit to their husbands, and also that husbands and wives are to submit “to one another in reverence for Christ.” The husband’s submission is described in the love he is encouraged to have, which is like Christ’s love when He “gave Himself,” which was an act of submission.
The relationship between Christ and the church is compared to the relationship between a wife and a husband. This does not mean the wife-husband relationship mirrors the church-Christ relationship in all aspects– since “submission” need not imply authority, and authority is not mentioned in the passage, therefore authority is not one of those aspects it mirrors– but no, the church-Christ relationship is not cultural.
At this point we are going in circles around the meaning of two words: “submit” and “one another.” You asked me about “submit.” I must ask you about “one another.”
Why does “one another” not mean “one another” to you? For you must admit that if it does (and all the lexicons say it means mutuality) then submission cannot always mean “to authority” or we would all be in authority over each other.
Mark,
Sorry I completely forgot that you said you would look into it. It seems that you then put that aside to retain your original assumption. When the BDAG says “subject oneself, or be subjected” it then offers the range of meaning
– to an ordered structure
– to husbands, masters, parents, secular authorities
– to church officials, the will of God
– of submission in the sense of voluntary yielding in love
The sense of “to an authority” is not part of the meaning of hupotasso, but is contained within the word that the person is subject to. The Christian is to submit to his neighbour, and we are to submit to each other. This is mutual.
Not only does Clement interpret Christian submission as to a neighbour, without authority, but we have an instance where a king submitted to the Jews. You dismissed this with a little casuistry.
I suggest that if Christian men do not want to live within a democracy, if they do not want a government that must submit to the people, then, when Christian men have given up their vote and surrendered their democratic rights, they may then talk about their experience of living in a non-democratic society.
We are commanded as Christians to love our neighbour as ourselves. My question has always been why some Christian men do not regard women as neighbours. I don’t understand why there is one standard for men, and another for women. Why don’t men request a non-democratic imperial government. W
Why don’t Christian men draw lots and then the half which lose must commit themselves to live a life of slavery, some of them until they die. When half of all Christian men surrender their freedom and become slaves, then they have established the foundation for a conversation with women. I am referring to a lifetime, till death. I am asking one Christian man to surrender his freedom until the day he die, and become subject night and day, to a human master.
Would you be willing to do that now – to give up your freedom to some other human being to make decisions for you until you die?
Mark,
You asked regarding Ryan’s comments:
The husband is the original source of the woman and thus she is from him and equal to him. The husband today is to see his wife as being from him as his very own body so that he is to care for her as if she is his own flesh. In the same way the Church is the body of Christ and is from Him as the start or origin of the Church.
We are to submit to serve Christ and to receive His service to us in love. The attitude is to be one of love and respect, not of constraint.
Yes authority does exist and submission is at times to an authority but you have already been shown by Suzanne here and myself at http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2010/06/02/submission-and-origin-of-authority/ that authority is not something that is to be assumed as submission can exist between equals and the fact that Paul said that the submission that is required of us is reciprocal, shows that it is not about submitting to an authority.
I don’t know what “disagree agree” means but I am assuming that is a typo. I also think that you should rethink your sentence. Egalitarians certainly do a good job at discrediting the argument not the people. Those who are in disagreement with us are brothers in Christ – no ones to discredit. I don’t see anyone here calling you a heretic or airing your dirty laundry or any other tactic of personal discrediting. Do you see the difference?
Are you saying that whenever there is a tough question that you can’t answer you are going to claim that the question doesn’t relate to the topic so you don’t need to answer? I think that it is good to answer the tough questions anyway as they are important to us. If you feel they are beyond the topic, tell us why. As far as extending what has not been said, there are logical outgrowths of a position and it is fair to discuss these things. If you do not believe that they are logical outgrowths you can tell us why we should not see it this way. It is not an attack on your person, but a part of discussion.
The wife is told to have a reciprocal submission with the husband. Since the verb is in verse 21 and it is reciprocal, there is no way to get around that. How can you take submission from verse 21 but leave out the specific grammar that is attached to submission that renders it specifically two-way? If you can explain how you have detached the reciprocal grammar from the verb, it would be helpful to understand your argument.
I think that everyone has been doing quite fine. Perhaps you can explain what “foreign labels” and “foreign concepts” you believe to be off topic?
You said to Susanna:
I think it would be helpful for you to deal with the grammar that makes submission as reciprocal. Reciprocal submission would leave authority out of the picture, wouldn’t you think?
You also said to Susanna:
Actually Mark, I would like to put this one back on you. How about we dare you to show how reciprocal submission can mean that authority is in mind? How does both have authority over each other? I would really like you to answer this. It is not a side issue but a very important piece of grammar that should not be ignored.
I think that all of us can agree that the husband had authority in that culture and that many cultures still hold to the husband having full authority over his wife. The question is always whether God ordained such an authority or whether it comes from sinful man wanting to dominate and control the physically weaker one? The question has been asked many times to show us where God has ordained the husband to have authority over his wife. You have as of yet given no Scripture where such an authority was transferred from God. If you have no Scripture that has a God-ordained authority transferred to the husband, then why should we believe that the mutual submission of Ephesians 5:21 is not mutual in the marriage when the only verb that verse 22 can attach to is found in verse 21 and that verb is absolutely and without a doubt reciprocal? Can you explain this?
Mark,
You said:
The Analytical Lexicon does not mention authority and neither does the Lexham Analytical Lexicon or the Louw-Nida Lexicon. And the reference I read in the Lexicons for the passive grammar didn’t mention authority but that the submission was voluntary. When there is a real authority, the submission would be required not voluntary. In the culture of the day women’s submission was not voluntary. It was only through Christianity that she had the same voluntary submission for her husband that all Christians were to have toward each other.
Once again how do you have authority when the submission is in the reciprocal grammar? This “forfeits” authority of one over the other by the specific grammar that makes the submission as reciprocal.
Cheryl,
Before i answer any more of your questions, can you please answer the one’s i asked of you first in relation to Ryan’s comments. You answered only one of my questions. Can you do the rest?
you said
“The husband is the original source of the woman and thus she is from him and equal to him. The husband today is to see his wife as being from him as his very own body so that he is to care for her as if she is his own flesh.”
Where does Paul even mention Adam and Eve in this context? Why are you importing this idea? Also when the Bible saids “the husband is the head of his wife” you interpret…
“The husband today is to see his wife as being from him as his very own body so that he is to care for her as if she is his own flesh.”
So my wife comes from my body? Are you serious on this one? Or is this some hypothetical idea? How can people think this is a serious alternative to comp theology. Surely you can do better than this?
Actually i will address one issue of yours. You seem to think that Eph 6 is a slam dunk for the egalitarian position. Now this purplexes me, since the verb ‘submit’ is not even in the text. The slave is told to ‘obey’ so why is it you think it confirms the egalitarian assumption on the verb submit? You stated that the masters are to be reciprocal aswell. Are you saying that the masters are to ‘obey’ the slaves? Here is again another example of a tangent in the egaitarian theology. We are discussing EPh 5, but more specifically the verb ‘submit’ and you tell me Eph 6 proves your point. How can this be, when the verb is not even the same?
Mark,
You said:
The first wife came from the husband (he is the source) but every wife after that IS the body. They are one united body knit together so that there is to be complete unity in care.
Mark,
Actually you have answered very few of my questions. I would like you to tell us how examples of how submission works in a comp marriage with the wife acting out a submission that is not something that God requires of the husband.
Mark,
You said:
Ephesians 6 lists how one of the pairs from chapter 5 submits. The slave obeys with sincereity of heart. Obedience is the submission and then God tells the masters to do the same.
They are to “render service” Eph 6:7, 8 and the term “obey” in verse 5 means to be “subject to”. Therefore the masters are also to be “subject to” or be in submission to the slaves. BADG lexicon regarding the word for obey:
You said:
Paul uses a synonym and he carries on the description of submission from chapter 5. It is absolutely the same subjection. The fact that Paul uses another word that means the same thing just reinforces the mutual subjection. Are you seriously trying to tell me that the command for masters to do the same thing is not subjection to their slaves?
Mark,
So are you actually going to ever tell us how one-sided submission works for the husband and wife and how she does something for her husband that he is not required to do for her? I am eagerly waiting for your explanation.
Cheryl,
Thanks for the interaction. Let me put it this way. I won’t base my understanding of hypotasso, from a verb that is not the same. I will base my understanding from the lexicons, context and the rest of the Bible. You may wish to swap and fiddle with the verbs to come to the conclusion that you do, but i am not.
Yes i am saying that masters were NOT subject to their slaves. I am confident in this, becasue the Bible never saids that masters are hypotasso to their slaves. If this was the case they would no longer be masters. I think what you need to do is look beyond the verb ‘obey’ and look at all the other things Paul describes for the slaves. Then also look at what Paul qualifies for the masters after ‘do the same thing’, for example ‘stop threatening’. You can’t just take ‘obey’ and ‘do the same thing’ and ignore the rest of the text as if it doesn’t mean anything or rather gives meaning to the exhortation. I thought i had heard it all from you Cheryl, until you come up with this one.
Why will i waste my time explaining how my marriage works on this blog. It is quite clear that we are never going to agree since our ‘foundations’ are completely different. Practical implications flow from theology, if the theology is different, the practical issues will be different. I don’t expect anything i say about my marriage will help facilitate our biblical interpretation of Eph 5.
It seems like in an egalitarian context the book of Ephesians could stop at 5:21, since the husband/wife, Christ/church, slave/master, child/parent relationships all say the same thing right- in a nutshell ‘mutual submission’. It makes me wonder why Paul would go to all that effort to give these exhortations, if he said it all in 5:21. Wow, my relationship with my wife is no different to the slave and his master- that’s encouraging! (sorry for the sarcasm)
Finally, if my wife IS the body with me, how can she come from my body? How can i be the source of her? Puzzling questions! Also again, why are you interpolating Adam and Eve into Eph 5 when Paul does not. Why are you basing your meaning of ‘head’ from something not even in the context? More puzzling questions. I think the reality is, i am not the source of my wife’s body- her parents are (physically). There is no direct correlation between the first pair and me and my wife physically like that.
This is why it appears that ‘head’ has some new age hypothetical mumbo jumbo meaning that makes no actual sense of the word or the context in which it lies. Or maybe i am the source ‘spiritually’ like Christ is for the Church. Can we draw the conclusion that i am the one responsible for the salvation of my wife, like Christ is for the Church? Let’s face it- stick with the proper meaning of the word(s) and uphold biblical teaching.
”Let me say it again- all lexicons i have read say that the verb ‘submit’ has authority attached to it. ……… That verb according to lexicons denotes authority.”
Mark,
There is a difference between having one part of the range of definitions include involving authority and denoting authority. In the range of meanings in English and in Greek, the word submit CAN include authority. But it is not required.
We can see quite clearly that you are ignoring the full range of the meaning of the word because your desire is so strong for it to mean only authority. But reality is that the word submit does not only relate to situations involving authority.
”Why is the wife’s submission directly linked to the Church’s submission?”
First it is not directly linked, but given as an example. Wives are being admonished to submit to the husbands in the same manner believers submit to the Messiah who died that we might have life. They are to submit with reverence for God. As believers we are responding to Christ’s sacrificial love toward us, and in a marriage husbands are to emulate Christ’s sacrificial love toward their wives and wives are to respond to that with the same trust and acceptance that we respond to Christ. We need to find the meaning in the context of what the author is writing about.
21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22Wives, to your husbands as to the Lord.
Here is another way to look at this. If we read these two sentences under one another we can see that Paul is basically repeating himself. First we all submit to one another out of reverence to Christ. Then without stopping his thought, Paul continues that wives also to their husbands, still keeping reverence for Christ.
”In her walk with Jesus she believes she is told to submit to me her husband. It is something God requires of her not me. So i agree that submission is a voluntary act.”
Mark
All this is saying is that you are not commanding her to submit, but rather God is commanding her to submit. Therefore, you can fall back on saying God said so. This does not describe voluntary anything. This is still you requiring her to submit. In your eyes she is not a good Christian woman unless she submits to your desires, requests, etc. as long as they are not sin.
Mark,
You said:
You are welcome! And I must say that you are one brave man to post your views on this blog! Most complementarians do not have answers to our questions and so the only thing that they can do is to insult egals and deny that they are following Christ. At least you try to stay away from that although your earlier comment about me being like the Pharisee who thanked God that he wasn’t like the sinner was way over the top and thoroughly unkind. Other than that you have been quite civil and it is much appreciated!
That is most unfortunate. It is pretty much saying that you won’t base your understanding of the word by considering the context of the passage. However we should understand that there are ranges of meanings for a word and the context will be the final determinate in the understanding of the particular meaning of a word. Without considering the context, it appears that you have chosen in advance what you want the verb to mean and you are looking only for things that might support your preconceived notion. That really isn’t wise. It is understandable for one who holds to male privilege, but it isn’t the way to fear God by submitting your preconceived ideas to His test.
If you are willing to base your understanding on the lexicons, and you have been willing to admit that the submission is voluntary not forced, then you should be able to see that a voluntary submission in the lexicons does not list voluntary submission “to an authority”. Submission can be given “out of love” without a compulsion or a threat or a fear of an authority that belongs to man.
The verbs in the context are all to be considered as part of the context. I have no need to “swap” and “fiddle” when the Bible clearly lists mutual acts that are given by both the slave and the master. This act of mutuality is a repeat of Ephesians 5:21 where the verb that we are discussing is reciprocal. The reciprocal is picked up in Ephesians 6:9 where Paul says, “And master, do the same things to them…” Note that this is plural and the things are the same between what the slaves did and what the masters are to do.
To be continued….
“Why will i waste my time explaining how my marriage works on this blog. It is quite clear that we are never going to agree since our ‘foundations’ are completely different. Practical implications flow from theology, if the theology is different, the practical issues will be different. I don’t expect anything i say about my marriage will help facilitate our biblical interpretation of Eph 5.”
We realize that if the theology is different then the practical issues are different. This is why we would like to understand how it is different; how does your theology ‘work out’ in real life for you. Anything that you could share with us would help to clarify for us what you are saying.
Mark – “Why will i waste my time explaining how my marriage works on this blog. It is quite clear that we are never going to agree since our ‘foundations’ are completely different. Practical implications flow from theology”
I agree. But I have never had anyone explain to me the practical “rules” and activities of daily living that entail my leading my wife or having authority over her. If the theology spawns the practical activites, then I think those activities would be at least roughly outlined, if not in scripture, then at least in doctrine. So, maybe you can help me out where no other men have been able.
So Mark, what are the practical, day to day activities that flow from this theology that I am to lead and have authority over my wife? What does Eph 5 exactly tell me I am supposed to do as a husband? What y-chromosome specific skills does the theology inform me that I have that enable me to fulfill my “role”? And if not in Eph 5, then where else in scripture are instructions for me that lead to these practical applications? Really, I want to know. Where does scripture tell me what I’m supposed to do to be a leader and authority in my marriage? I hear the theology of patriarchy loud and clear, but I find little to nothing practical flowing out of it.
Mark,
I’m not trying to be rude about this, but it really would make all the difference if you would just give one example of application. Jesus taught using parables for a good reason – it really helps get your message across to others. One example doesn’t seem like a great deal to ask.
For example suppose that my husband and I were new converts to the comp. view and my husband came to you for advice on how to live that out, what would you tell him?
Mark said,
“So my wife comes from my body? Are you serious on this one? Or is this some hypothetical idea? How can people think this is a serious alternative to comp theology. Surely you can do better than this?”
Personally, I prefer to look to Colossians 2:19 and Ephesians 4:15-16, which describe what Christ’s function as “Head” to the church His body, is. The “head” is the source of life and growth for the body, according to Paul’s thinking. It is a provisionary function. Authority is not mentioned in either passage, but life, growth, and building up in love is. Now, obviously only Christ can be the Source of Life, since He is the Vine and we are the branches– but the husband’s “head” function towards his wife as his “body” would be as the source of provision– of material sustenance, certainly for in that culture women were completely dependent on men for that– but also of helping her grow in Christ and building her up in love. This was especially appropos in that culture, where she had been very much under his feet, and Christianity now gave her rights to study and learn, and to stand by her husband’s side.
Kristen,
Excellent summary.
I was giving what I believed was Ryan’s view as I was asked. I too believe that the husband is to nourish the wife by suppling her needs thus he provides for her as he is able. But because they are one body there may be times that she has to look after him if he is disabled, etc. But the “norm” would be the husband providing for her needs as he sacrifices for her.
To continue with Mark’s comments from #56,
We can look to the verb and at all the other things that Paul tells slaves to do.
Here is a copy of the Greek.
Notice above that the word for “be obedient” means to “be subject to”, “follow”, “listen to”, “submit to”, “yield to”.
Slaves are to submit to their masters and to do this willingly in sincerity of heart “as to Christ”.
Are masters also to do all of this in sincerity of heart “as to Christ”? Yes, they are also to submit to the needs of the servant and listen to them. These Christian masters are to do all of this in the fear of the Lord. For just as the slaves are to render service to their masters:
…so too are the masters to render service to the slaves:
One other thing that is added on the part of masters is to give up threatening. Although with mutual submission, this would also be applicable to slaves, slaves would not be the ones who would have the power to threaten. It is the masters who had the power to threaten with punishment. They were to stop this.
Notice also that along with doing the same things (plural) to the slaves, they were to consider that the slaves were equal with them in the Lord as they both has the same master and the Lord is not partial to masters over slaves.
I didn’t say that the rest of the text didn’t mean anything. I was pointing out the mutual submission that is evident in the English and in the Greek. Whatever the rest of the text includes, it cannot exclude “submission” and “do the same thing”. These words are there for a purpose and they make common sense of Ephesians 5:21 where the grammar is reciprocal. When the command is for all of us to submit to each other and then Paul goes on to show how that is to be operative even in the lives of slaves and masters with masters doing the same things to the slaves as unto the Lord, we have a full description of mutual submission “one to another”.
You don’t need to give us an example from your own marriage, but surely you can give a hypothetical example that you would consider a classic example of an authority taken by the husband with submission by the wife where the husband is not required to do for the wife what she is required to do for him. Without an example how is it that we can fully understand what you are saying? Since you don’t agree with my examples of mutual submission, perhaps you can give us a good one or two examples of unilateral submission. Or perhaps you just aren’t able to give such an example. If that is the case just say so. Then our case will stand and we win 😉
Mark,
You said:
It is certainly clear for me that you are never going to give up your male privilege. But even so it is a good thing for at least there to be understanding of the position. You are the one who consistently says that egals add to or misrepresent the comp position. Now is your chance to clear the air and tell us exactly how the comp view of authority and submission can work out in a definite “men would never be called to do that” example.
So, let’s see your different practical issue that flows from your theology. Let’s see the comp view in action. That can’t be too hard, can it?
What an example will do (whether it is from your own marriage or not) will show how the interpretation of Eph 5 works it way out in real life that is consistent with the passage and with the rest of the Bible.
Paul gives specific wisdom for each different set of relationships. Each has a unique set of problems that would challenge each one from mutually meeting each other’s needs.
Funny how you put words into our mouths and then make fun of your own words. The fact is that each relationship has its challenges but each relationship is to submit to each other as to Christ. It is our love for Him and our fear of the Lord that encourages us to do what is right even when we feel like we are the privileged one. We are to realize that the Lord Jesus is Master of all and there is no partiality with Him that would make the master as more privileged than the servant or the husband more privileged than the wife or a parent more privileged than a young child believer. No partiality with God means that all are to submit to the needs of the other.
She grows from you as her head. You have been set up first so that you take responsibility to care and nurture her and and selflessly meet her needs. That all flows from the head to the body as the head is the source.
While only the first man was the physical source of his wife, all mean are to be the source of care. Surely you feel some responsibility to look after your wife and care for her needs. If you feel this responsibility, then you are acting out the head as source application.
Only Christ can supply her spiritual needs. He is the only spiritual source. The husband supplies her physical needs. He is the physical source.
One could certainly come to that conclusion if one is a comp. For if the man can take Christ’s authority, then why not take his place as Savior? If the man is to be just like Christ as the comps teach, then where is the line drawing the boundary? I believe that the boundary line is what is in the natural and everything that is a part of God’s duty toward us has nothing to do with the male. Christ’s authority is His right as God.
Now we will wait to see how Mark will bring out the examples of authority/submission with no male taking on any act of submission toward his wife. It will be a huge learning experience to see into the mind of a comp who believes he has a male privilege that God gave him. I will be waiting with baited breath for you to answer Mark. Go ahead. Your turn.
*gengwall begins holding breath*
gengwall,
I love it when you supply us with these pictures in our head! 🙂 Don’t get blue now. Mark has already turned us down once. Here’s hoping he will keep working for understanding.
You know I’m all ears when you talk about grammar Cheryl…1 Tim 2…Genesis 1, 2 & 3 🙂 Love paying attention to the GRAMMAR!!
Are you serious, Mark? In Eph 5, Paul had in mind specificaly Genesis 2 when woman was taken from man. That she was taken from man IS the reason why a man leaves father and mother and the two become one.
Genesis 2:
The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.”
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
Eph 5:
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies…29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31″For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
It’s obvious from Ephesians 5 that the woman’s creation out of the man foreshadowed the church being made out of Christ.
Pinklight,
You missed the point. The egalitarian ‘source’ meaning relies heavily on the ‘physical’ aspect as Cheryl has just confirmed. Is this Paul’s interest in Eph 5. Does he talk about about Adam providing for Eve- NO! The only thing that goes back to Gen is the one flesh union- the marriage- not the supposed provisional priority of the male. Here is the fallicy of Cheryl’s son’s whole argument. Not to mention his claims that we are equal with Christ in the sense that we are sinless and whatever else it was that he said. Both ideas are completely foreign to the text and Paul’s meaning.
Now carry this further- Paul contrast this to the Church and Christ. Now in what way does Christ provide physically for us. Does he go and earn money and supply our physical needs in the same way a husband is supposed to under the egalitarian position. Straight away the comparison Paul makes becomes meaningless. That is why egals have to talk about Christ provision being different to the husbands provision- thus we no longer have a comparison. It just seems totally silly, at least Sue realises this and abstains from pushing ‘source’ for the meaning of head.
So why is the comp position so much more consistent- it doesn’t swap and fiddle and sqirm and make nonsense out of the passage. A wife is to submit to her husband who is the head because he has auhtority over her, in the same way the church submits to Christ as the head who has authority over the Church.
Finally you said
“It’s obvious from Ephesians 5 that the woman’s creation out of the man foreshadowed the church being made out of Christ.”
Sure let’s assume this is correct. How then does this apply to the husband in Ephesus who is the source of his wife? In what way is the Ephesian coming out of her husband? This is the problem, the comparison is between the husband and wife in Ephesus and the Church and Christ, from which Paul draws on the one flesh union of Adam and Eve, not the creational order of Eve. It’s interesting how in the two places Paul argues for a creational order, egals protest, and then they insert it into a place where it is not even in view?
Cheryl,
Your attempt to criticise me for ignoring the context doesn’t seem to hold. Let’s face the fact’s. You are beginning with the slave/master metaphor and the verb attached to it. You come to a conclusion on the meaning of that section AND THEN go back to hypotasso and argue for a meaning that never exists when one person is told to submit to another.
Sure you may be looking at the ‘context’ but you are not actually looking at the ‘context’. You work backwards in your exegesis in this passage.
It is pretty clear we are never going to agree on this matter- how can we expect to when our hermeneutics are so vastly different.
Let me encourage everyone here to perhaps devote more energy to giving a realist alternative to a comp interpretation. You can argue till your black in the face about the meanings of words and verbs etc, but let’s face it, the alternative you offer is weak- very weak. It seems that egals are so caught up in disproving their opposition that they forgot to think about their alternative. That’s my two cents worth.
Let me give one small sample of how i believe my wife chooses to submit to me as her head and the leader of our family.
When we have dinner our children are not allowed to leave the table until they have finished and until everyone else is finished. If both my wife and i are present and one of my children asks to hop down from the table, my wife will always tell the kids that they need to ask me, even if they have asked her first.
I have never commanded that she do this. I have never asked her to do this to show her submission to me. I believe and know she does this to show that she respects me as the head of our house. She believes this is one way she can instill into our children how the Father leads the home. Now is this something she does voluntarily- yes it is. Is it something i command- no it is not. It is an act of submission on her part to recognise my authority as both a husband and a father. It teaches our children that when both mum and dad are around, dad is the one in authority. She could quite legitimately tell the kids they can hop down, but she chooses to point the decision over to me.
Yet it is never something i command or tell her to obey. Hope this helps and please don’t attempt to exegete my words over the computer. Thanks
Mark,
Your wife’s respect for you is admiral. But are you saying that you are not to display this same kind of respect for her?
Example: Your kids have asked something of your wife and she has told them that they cannot do what they asked. They come to you and ask permission and you don’t see anything wrong with them doing whatever they asked of you. Do you just ignore the refusal your wife has given and go against her “no” to the children? Or do you make your children respect their mother’s denial of their request? Are you not allowed by the command of God to submit your “yes” to the children to her previous “no”? Are you really trying to tell us that the respect that your wife gives you will never be given to her with your children because your “yes” will override their mother’s “no” so that the children will learn to bypass their mother’s “law” and to see her as someone whose “law” is not upheld?
Also where does your authority act out in your example? How have you taken authority over your wife? Can you please explain this part while you are showing us why you are not allowed to submit to your wife’s decision with the children. Thanks!
“If both my wife and i are present and one of my children asks to hop down from the table, my wife will always tell the kids that they need to ask me, even if they have asked her first.”
In a normal houshold, if the children ask their father if they can leave the table, the father is supposed to tell the children to ask their mother also. This indicates to the chiklren that both mother and father are due equal respect. It also happens to be logical and useful, since the mother has been with the children all day, and is tuned into their eating needs and what has happened with the child all day.
In a normal healthy household, the father would not override the mother at the supper table. If the mother is overridden by the father, she may eventually take her supper to the bedroom and eat in there, as I did for a while.
If men simply take and accept respect but do not offer it in equal measure, they may end up in their later years living on their own. It is a sorry business.
Cheryl,
Your above example is a good case of muddying the waters. We are not talking about mutual respect but mutual submission.
I would not just ‘overide’ so to speak my wife’s instruction to my kids because i am sure that her love for them is the reason for stopping them. If i thought she was being unfair i would go and address that with her. If i did just override her, would that show my children that i love her like Christ does the Church- no it wouldn’t.
The difference between the examples is that in my case the choice my wife makes is when both are present and both could equally say something. Your example tries simply to show whether i would just usurp my wife’s authority over our children when i am not present. See the difference. What might be better to ask, is whether at the dinner table i would tell my children to ask my wife for permission. I’m sure you know the answer to that though.
Still no answer Mark? I would think you should try a positive approach of your own understanding of authority and submission first. If you have not yet figured out how to give a response, that would be quite telling. It is harder than it looks, eh?
You said to pinklight:
Paul talks about the husband to love and give himself up as Christ did. Giving oneself up is part of the provisional aspect of Christ’s love that is to be reflected by the husband and he is to “nourish” her, a link to provision. Are you not complying with this and refusing to provide for your own wife as Paul said husbands were to do? Why a denial that there is a provisional aspect of Christ’s love which is to be modeled by the husband?
No wonder you said whatever else it was that he said because you obviously were skimming through it again and misread. Ryan did not say that “we are sinless”. I would encourage you to understand a position first before you throw out an answer, because an uninformed “answer” doesn’t make for a good argument.
Not so. Provision is in the text. See Jamieson, Fausset, Brown:
Mark, I can’t believe that you are working to be in ministry and then you ask this question:
Christ as God provides our daily food, our very breath and life and our spiritual nourishment. I could go on and on and on about what He does for us as our source, but surely you have seen this from the Scriptures and from personal experience or do you not even pray for your needs?
You are just playing silly. It comes across as mocking Christ to me. Are you really intending to do that?
Looking at the text in a mocking fashion will always make it seem “meaningless”. Is this the best that you can do?
Provision is compared to provision. No one has ever said that the multi-human body that is Christ’s wife is to be taken exactly as the one woman human wife of one man. No exegete compares the two as exactly the same and for you to make Christ’s work as Savior as exactly the same as the husband’s work for his wife, your entire “case” has fallen apart at the seams.
The comp position isn’t consistent at all. You can’t show us how a wife’s submission is something that God refuses to allow a man to do the same thing for her. Secondly the issue of the husband’s authority and how he is to take it over his wife is not consistent or even understandable and most comps cannot even come up with a real life example of Christ’s love for the bride as shown by their own taking authority over their wife. Third, comps continually have to disregard the reciprocal grammar of verse 21. Why? Because it doesn’t fit their world view. Egals don’t need to ignore the grammar to make their view fit.
Sue,
re-read what i wrote and please refrain my labelling my house a ‘un-normal’.
Why is you think a no-authority policy shows children something radically different. The way i see it in our western egalitarian, non-authority culture, children no longer have respect. Our children run wildly around since they are taught that there is no such thing as authority- this is a direct result of our culture and you want me to push my children head-long into it. It’s all about ‘my rights’ and it is an epidemic at least in Australia.
I will teach my children that i love and cherish my wife and would die if necessary for her. I will teach them that i will not abuse her or dominate and lord over her. She teaches them that i am the head of our house and that they are to respect and obey that. This is radically different to our culture and why the Bible gives such a beautiful picture of our relationship with Christ. Let me say that the normal picture should reflect Christ and the Bible- an egalitarian model does not do that.
Mark you said:
It was your example. Why don’t you give an example of submission if you think that your wife’s respect isn’t a good example of submission?
As Sue said a wife needs respect also from her husband and her “law” needs to be obeyed by the kids. Even if you didn’t see a reason why the kids couldn’t do what you wife forbid them to do, a godly husband would support his wife’s decision thus submitting to her “law” with the children. This is mutual submission and with it comes mutual respect.
I am very glad that you can see that overriding your wife’s decision is not Christ-like. That is exactly how egals feel. It is also my contention that most comps really live exactly like egals do in their marriages. Respectfully godly men will give their wives mutual submission through mutual respect even if they fail to call it this name. They will with love, give to their wives the same kind of things that their wives give to them. Your example shows this and for this I say you are a good man.
Mark,
You said:
Try this one:
Your beautiful girls want to look a little more beautiful and so they ask you if they can put on makeup (the makeup belongs to their mother). You as a wonderful godly and respectful Dad say to them….ask your mother? Or do you make this decision for them because your wife is unable to make her own decision??
Cheryl,
Why is it you ask me to give you an example but yet do not wish to address the example i gave? What’s the corner your trying to push me into. I try to give you an example and you have just ignored it, i’m not going to waste my time going over other hypotheticals.
How does my example show mutual submission Cheryl…enlighten me? Maybe you egals just live like comps and have false labels attached to comp theology…like dominate, abuse etc etc
Mark,
First of all my comment #156 was posted quite a bit earlier. I am not sure why it arrive on the blog page late.
Mark you said:
That is taking a stab at egalitarian marriages and you shouldn’t do that since you don’t live in our homes or see our respect. You aren’t qualified to judge that.
Secondly the Bible says that the law of the Father and the law of the Mother are to be obeyed. If we set the husband up as the authority in the home and the mother is not set up as an equal parental authority, then the kids may have a tendency to go to father and bypass their mother.
I have seen godly men ask their children what their mother said and then told their children to obey their mother and not to come for a second opinion. This is mutual respect and it shows the children that the mother is also to be respected and her word obeyed just as their father is to be respected and his word obeyed.
“Or do you make this decision for them because your wife is unable to make her own decision??”
who saids a wife can’t make her own decision? is this another false label you are attaching to my theology? More circles to go around and around and around. Let me put it this way…ive given an example of how my wife chooses to submit to me as her head- deal with that.
Ive run outta time today so maybe by tomorrow, you might actually wish to address the relevant issues.
Mark,
You asked:
I did address your example. But you were asked to show a kind of submission that your wife gives to you that you would never give to her. So you would never tell your kids to ask permission from their mother? You appear to be a bit of an odd duckie if you would never tell your kids to ask permission from their mother. It was quite easy to find a situation where it should be “natural” for you to say that your children should ask their mother about her makeup. In that case you are submitting the decision making to your wife which is a godly thing to do.
Mark,
You said:
Your example doesn’t show mutual submission. I didn’t ask you to show mutual submission. What I asked you to show was an example of your wife’s submission where she is doing something to/for you that you would never do for her. That would be an example of unilateral submission. But if you would send the kids to their mother to get an answer just like she sent them to you, then you are both submitting to the other person’s decision in a very similar way.
I do have to go to bed now so I will leave you with this request. Could you please come up with an example of where your wife submits to you and the same kind of action that she does, you could not, would not, and cannot do to/for her (supposing that God forbids you to have this kind of submission to/for her).
This is the very same question I gave you before, just worded in a way so you can not miss the question. The example you gave was a good example of your wife’s submission to you, but your example is also a good example of where you can easily do the same thing for her in certain circumstances so it is not an example of a completely unilateral submission.
So what is unilateral submission for your wife to do in your marriage where you will never, ever for any reason do the same for your wife?
And where does your authority come in? I haven’t seen it in practice with your wife. Perhaps you can give a generic example of Jim and June and how Jim takes a Christ-like authority over his wife. Since you are also out of time, we can pick this up tomorrow. Okay?
Oops sorry missed this one and then I have to go.
Mark, you said:
Not at all. I was testing your unilateral submission of your wife to see if you too can submit to your wife’s decision. It would be natural in my example to send the kids to their mom thus doing to her what she did for you. But if you didn’t do that, you would be making the decision for her, taking authority over her makeup and why on earth would you do that?
I think you need to find another example because the one you gave is so easy to be a way to have mutuality and since I think that you must be a good guy deep down in your heart there is no doubt in my mind that you would do the right thing and send the kids to their mom for a decision. So where is an example of submission that is never mutual ever? That is what I am waiting for. Does this make sense?
Adam’s body provided for Eve’s body. That is how she was created, from Adam’s body and it is why there can even be a one flesh union between the two.
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies…29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church
Christ’s body put to death is what provides us with life, and part of Adam’s body was what God used to create Eve’s body and this is why “source” is tied into the meaning of the head/body metaphor – a unity.
Paul tells husbands to love their wives as their own bodies and he can tell husbands to do that because Adam’s body was used to make Eve’s body and since she was made from him they become one flesh. It has nothing to do with Eve being created second (creational order), but rather her origin – that she was taken out of the man.
Creation order is mentioned only in 1 Tim 2, it is not in 1 Co 11. Paul talks about origin in 1 Co 11, but he does NOT mention Adam being created first and then Eve. So what’s the second place you had in mind where Paul speaks of Adam being created first then Eve? And in Eph 5, Adam being created first (priority of creation) is not in view. There is a difference between priority of creation (Adam being created first and then Eve) and origin (woman being taken from man or Adam from the ground). They are not the same thing.
So are they taught that they are your body too? The head/body metaphor is a special relationship that can only exist between the husband and wife. If you are the head of the home then your home which includes your children are your body, and that is not scriptural. Ofcourse I assume you get the idea that you are “head of the home” from Eph 5, but you MUST remember that the head is only head in relation to the body, therefore if you distort the metaphor by saying “I’m the head of the home” when scripture only says that you are the head of your wife, then your children are put in the same position as your wife, that is, they are your body. To say that the husband is the head of the home and that this is taught in Eph 5 is to completely distort the head/body metaphor.
Mark,
In other words, you can’t chop the metaphor up or in two by spltting off the head from the body and and then claim “I’m the head of the home because Eph 5 teaches that I’m the head of the home.” No. That’s is how you destroy the scriptural head/body metaphor by chopping it up like that.
This is the problem with your example given in #152. You gave an example of how you believe your wife chooses to submit to you as her head and the leader of the family. Obviously, in the example you gave you are not basing it on the metaphor of Ehp 5. But I do appreciate that you tried to give an example. Problem was that you combined you wife’s choice of submission to you with the idea that you are the head of the home.
Wrong. See my last comment #170
So, when Paul says “submit one to another” you take it to mean “some to others” and that would mean (for one) “wives to the head of the home”, right?
Alrighty then ;P
The recent conversation which I participated in led to some reflections on what I observed:
http://nuallan.livejournal.com/53936.html
(no, I’m not back and won’t be checking for response to this, just thought it might interest some)
Mark – I like your example because it is simple and common. But it does not prove any of your points.
For one, your wife’s submission to you in this particular example does not establish in any way that you are in authority over her. Or are you saying that she also needs to get your permission to leave the dinner table? The only thing your example establishes is that your wife and you have mutual authority over your household. Or are you saying that you would not return the respectful gesture if your kids asked you first? Your example certainly does not establish you are the unilateral leave-the-table decision maker, for if you were, what would your wife do if you were out of town – call you to see if the children can leave the table? That would be absurd.
So, there is nothing authoritarian in your example at all (or even hierarchical). It is just an example of respectful behavior between parents. Admirable? Yes. An example of comp theology put into practice? Hardly.
NN,
I for one will not be reading your post as I just don’t have time to go outside my own blog most days. And it is too hard to follow any conversation between two blogs. If you would like to post a paragraph or comment here regarding your thoughts that would be appreciated.
By the way I will be doing a post in the future on the hierarchy model of submission that you and your dear wife supplied us. I think it would be helpful to talk about and so a post is in the works but not sure yet when it will go up. I may need to do one or more posts first.
gengwall,
Thanks for your thoughts. I must have been tired last night that I didn’t pick up those great points.
Indeed Mark’s example did not show that he is in authority over his wife and it did not show that Mark is a unilateral decision maker or that he would never tell his kids in any situation to go to his wife for a decision. That is unless he comes back and shows us that he doesn’t allow his wife to make decisions over her own make-up.
It also shows an ignorance of the Scripture since the Bible shows that wives are also rulers of the home. If Mark has not shown this to his wife and keeps her in ignorance for his own advantage, it makes me wonder about his silence or perhaps his own ignorance of the Greek.
It also makes me wonder how one can truly come up with a comp example of authority over his wife with unilateral submission which is never reciprocated in any way. I honestly can’t think of any examples. But then Mark’s stubborn claim that he would never stoop to be lower than his own wife to lift her up in her need may produce an example that I could not think of. I eagerly await his return.
Mark, #152
Thank you for your example of how dinner is handled at your house. It does show an atmosphere of fatherly rule. The fact that your wife defers to you without being commanded is nice for you. It is not uncommon for wives who live in a marriage of male dominance to willingly and frequently defer to the husband. It makes life easier for her to show visible (and often excessive) honor to the husband whenever possible.
This does give us a better idea of the extent of authority in a home arranged on the authority submission paradigm. The atmosphere that you described is one that many of us are familiar with.
NN, #173
I skimmed through your Narnia dialogue. I always loved Narnia. However, I must say that without your input to it, I’ve no idea what spoke to you in those sections of the story. Just quoting the story doesn’t tell me what you make of it.
Cheryl – I agree with you. Mark’s example does not at all show authority of the “head” over the “body”, but instead looks far more like egal mutual submission. I also agree with your parallel example where I suspect Mark would give equal deference to his wife to make a decision. Moreover, while being just a simple example which I appreciate, it can hardly be proven scripturally that the decision to let children leave the table (or any other such decision in the household) is the males unilateral role or that the male is somehow unilaterally gifted (and the female unqualifies) to make such a decision. Which means it boils down, as usual, to individual couples “doing family” in their own way.
In my house, the situation was actually reversed. My wife, coming from a stricter family, was more prone to expect the children to stay at the table until everyone was done eating. The kids, knowing I would be inclined to allow an early departure, would ask me first if they could leave. Out of respect for my wife’s views on the subject, I would defer to her to give the final release. Certainly, Mark would not claim that my wife was usurping my authority by “leading” in this family situation, nor would he claim I was shirking my responsibility. Or would he? I think such a position would be absurd, so I expect he agrees that the way we did the dinner thing was just as legitimate as the way he did. Which proves our point – it is not an exercise in authority.
Mark – what we need from you is something that you believe is universally and unilaterally within the husband’s sphere of authority. Something that only husbands are qualified and commanded by scripture to do within the marriage. Something that would consitute sin if either the husband deferred to the wife or the wife took the lead. Is there anything in your marriage or in comp theology that husbands must always do and wives are never allowed to do. And please, when you answer, give us the scriptural playbook to back up the theology. Your saying so doesn’t make it so – we must see where scripture says it’s so.
“But then Mark’s stubborn claim that he would never stoop to be lower than his own wife to lift her up in her need may produce an example that I could not think of.”
Hmmm – I don’t think he has ever claimed that, has he? That may be your conclusion, but are we putting words in Mark’s mouth?
“This does give us a better idea of the extent of authority in a home arranged on the authority submission paradigm. The atmosphere that you described is one that many of us are familiar with.”
This has an accusatory ring too, and is a borderline straw man. I doubt Mark’s wife is cowering in the corner and engaging in “excessive honor to the husband” to avoid a beating, which is what I read implied in your comments.
I don’t think it moves the conversation forward to take an overly pessimistic view of Mark’s marriage. From everything I have read from him, which is all I and any of us have to go on, he and his wife seem to have a happy marriage with a decision making arrangement that works well for them. The point Cheryl and I and others have occassionally made is that on the surface, it sounds egalitarian. I would offer that we should assume the best and try to point out where we think he and his wife actually depart from comp theology and practice.
“Mark – I like your example because it is simple and common. But it does not prove any of your points.
For one, your wife’s submission to you in this particular example does not establish in any way that you are in authority over her”
Gengwall, actually I disagree. Maybe because I have lived that picture before, I understand what leads up to that. Plus, note Mark’s statements describing it.
1. likely the children are not allowed to leave because father has commanded it. This could be one reason why wife defers to husband for children to ask permission. Or she could be deferring everything she can to husband, which is also the sign of a humbled wife.
2. The fact that wife always defers to husband is not innocent of influence. Wife may have learned that life is easier if she does this. I’ve seen this often enough.
3. An atmosphere in which no one is allowed to leave the table until everyone is through eating and father is in charge of when anyone can leave, is very authoritative.
Mark describes himself as head and leader. He believes his wife defers to him in order to show that “Father” leads the home. It appears that Mark takes some pride in the fact that he doesn’t have to command his wife to defer to him, but that she does so voluntarily in order to show his authority. All of this describes an atmosphere of authority and submission. Quite true.
However, you may have noted that a wife can defer to a husband without it being about the husband’s authority. And a husband can defer to his wife without it being about her authority. Quite true. But would you actually take pride in not allowing anyone to leave the dinner table until everyone had finished eating? Maybe you might do that for a particular dinner, but my guess is not as a required routine. That could get really old and tiring. IMO the whole atmosphere of authority submission get’s old and tiring. It IS INDEED role playing as the French call it. I’ve lived a bit of that in my youth, and some of it as a spouse.
But then I concede that some people enjoy being boss and some people enjoy being bossed. It is their choice.
The end line though is that type of living is not prescribed in Scripture. Everyone is really allowed to organize their marriage however they choose with minimal guidelines. How anyone can get an authority submission marital paradigm out of Ephesians is an interesting mystery.
“Which proves our point – it is not an exercise in authority…”
I should have added “…of one spouse over the other”
gengwall, 181
If you think that was too harsh, then I will yield to you on that and ….
Cheryl, will you please remove my comment #177 and this one as well.
Perhaps, you may think my following comment #182 is harsh also, but it may give you an idea of why I saw what I saw in Mark’s comment.
“I doubt Mark’s wife is cowering in the corner and engaging in “excessive honor to the husband” to avoid a beating, which is what I read implied in your comments.”
Nope that wasn’t implied. In fact, it didn’t even occur to me.
“But would you actually take pride in not allowing anyone to leave the dinner table until everyone had finished eating? Maybe you might do that for a particular dinner, but my guess is not as a required routine. That could get really old and tiring. ”
This was the norm in our house. It may get old and tiring for the kids, but they are not in charge. I guess I have no problem with parental authority, which is what I believe Mark’s example shows. I do not see any inherent male authority in it.
Yup, putting words in Mark’s mouth. A little poke in fact. Mark has said that he will not submit to his wife and I added the real meaning of submission – to go underneath a person to meet their need. Now I realize that Mark isn’t seeing submission this way. I would venture to say that he does this very thing regularly but refuses to call it submission and my little poke was set to bring this out. Gengwall you uncovered my ruse. Rats!
I would like to see Mark’s example of manly authority over his wife and her submission that he would never stoop to doing for her. But in reality I think that they live just as egalitarian a life as we all do for the most part and that Mark never takes his authority. Sadly men taking authority over their wives is actually hurtful to women whether a man knows it or not. By the time that many men find out the harm that they have caused, their marriage is already destroyed beyond repair. I sincerely doubt that Mark does takes authority over his wife because it strikes me as a inner attitude that he has rather than an outer taking authority over his wife in reality.
I also doubt that Mark in reality would fail to support his wife with submission when she needs it. He would just call it something else because I believe that Mark truly does love his wife and he would do for her whatever she needs even if it is letting her take authority over a situation that is highly important to her. While Mark may be rude here sometimes and he still has not repented for his calling me the equivalent of a self-righteous Pharisee, I believe that he is gentle with his wife respecting her needs and never calling her Pharisaical names in order to demean her. If I am right, Mark is not the same way in his marriage as he comes across on this blog.
TL – I don’t think you were too harsh, and I certainly exercised a little hyperbole myself. I just don’t want us to jump to erroneous and unsupported conclusions about Mark’s marriage based on one little anecdote from him or our own negative personal experiences with similar situations.
TL,
Are you sure that you want me to remove the comment? I think the conversation can be helpful to others, but if you still want me to, I will.
“Let me encourage everyone here to perhaps devote more energy to giving a realist alternative to a comp interpretation”
Mark, Mark, Mark…Do you not realize that many of us lived as comps for many years? I could quote you all the talking points forwards and backwards. I have read their Talmuds. Sat in most of their seminars. Listened to thousands of comp sermons.
It was only by studying the Word indepth and begging the Holy Spirit to remove the filters did I see the contradictions of the comp proof texts. I can give you ONE: The Joel prophecy in Acts. Oh, I know all the comp arguments about this one but they are lies using a few other badly translated proof texts and very bad interpretations. (Ironically, the Puritans agree with me on one bad translation the comps use to negate the Joel Prophecy for women)
But I did the same thing that they are asking here. I started asking for practical examples of the husband authority on a day to day basis. I asked this of well known comp couples. Of seminar presenters and many pastors who focus on this stuff (to the neglect of the Gospel, I might add)
And guess what! The answers were ALWAYS what the wife should do. The point was that SHE had to make him feel like the big authority. It was all about what she does. This was no matter if the wife worked 50 hours a week or not. It was the same message. And it started sounding like a rule book or to do list or one of those 10 step how to books.
And your example was about what your WIFE does. It never ceases to amaze me how this is the same everywhere in the comp movement! The focus is on the women.
The bottomline is that if you both are believers, you seek the Kingdom first. The relationship with Christ is first and foremost. And that relationship with Christ is what will bring a great loving marriage. But you comps have women focused on their role. They are taught to focus on YOUinstead of Christ. It is a man centered religion of works. After all, none of us can serve two masters.
I suggest you think of ONE FLESH union as it is: ONE FLESH. There is no authority in one flesh.
I will leave it all in your capable judgement Cheryl. If you think both of my last opinions on this were unacceptable or sidetracking, then please remove. If you esteem they are useful for conversation, then leave them. I willingly defer to your judgement in this.
blessings, 🙂
I actually have no problem with a wife making sure that the kids see the father as an authority figure. After all they are with her all day and it is her authority that they must respect. The dad they see far less (usually) and I think it can be really sweet for a wife to defer to her husband to show respect to him as a model for her kids. What wouldn’t be good would be if the husband did not show her equal respect and disrespected her authority. This would give the children the idea that she is an inferior authority and would cause them also to disrespect their mother.
I saw this attitude in the Middle East when we were there in the mid 1980’s. The wives have no respect from the children because the father is set up as the key authority figure. We saw a boy throwing rocks at his sister. His mom tried to stop him but he only responded by throwing rocks at her. Our guide told us that the mothers are not allowed to discipline the sons as that is taking authority over a male and it isn’t allowed. If she were to discipline him she would invite a beating from her husband. The result is that the males are raised with a haughty mindset of male privilege that allows them to disrespect women.
While Mark’s wife is willingly giving her husband respect (and I commend her for her effort), if he does not also show her respect for her authority with the children he is giving them an unspoken message that he alone is worthy of respect and only males have the highest worth.
I believe that one day when we are in heaven there will be some sadness at the lack of humility that some expressed here on this earth thinking that they alone are worthy. Jesus never took an attitude of having a higher worth nor did He give the impression that He alone could make decisions or that He alone had authority and He is God! If He could live a life of respect for others and not lording it over those less than He is, then surely godly men today should live as Christ did in humility and respect.
“This was the norm in our house. It may get old and tiring for the kids, but they are not in charge. I guess I have no problem with parental authority, which is what I believe Mark’s example shows. I do not see any inherent male authority in it.”
Gengwall, 186
LOL I’ve no problem with parental authority either. My brain just saw something else at work there. And the age of the children makes a difference also. Requiring children to sit through a meal and engage in conversation is not a bad thing in itself. If one starts young enough, later on the rules can be slowly released as the children have learned respect for others. For many other reasons, it just wasn’t a good experience for me in my childhood. It’s the other reasons that were in play in my head.
Sorry about the misunderstanding there.
What is interesting in this last turn of conversation is that it shows me that motivation can make all the difference. Both male authority minded and those mutuality minded can do the same things but for different reasons. I propose that the reasons we do things can sometimes (but not always) influence how they are experienced by some.
Lydia @ 190 – exactly my experience. I have asked literally hundreds of men on forums, in bible studies, in my family, and even in church leadership, what the “playbook” is for “head of the house” or “spiritual leader”. I get nothing but vague generalities like “well, the husband should make the decisions” or “the husband should lead in spiritual matters”. But nowhere can they point me to scripture that outlines this concept, nor can they demonstrate in their own lives this concept being lived out consistently.
We also shouldn’t lose sight of pinklight’s comment @ 168. Ephesians 5 uses a head/body metaphor exclusively within the relationship between husband and wife. How we deal with our “household” is not addressed in the passage. Moreover, the concept of “kephale (head) of the household” is entirely foreign to the ancient Greek language. So, to assert that Eph 5 proves a position or role that isn’t in view and the original language doesn’t even recognize is really a stretch.
I agree with this, but from his perspective the example he gave is of his wife’s submission to him as head of herand him being head of the home. I wonder what would his wife’s submission to him as head in the marriage look like aside his belief that he is the head of the home? Seems to me that maybe he cannot seperate the two?
YES!
This is what I want to see also.
” How we deal with our “household” is not addressed in the passage.”
I don’t know if Mark is coming back but what does he do with the verse in 1 Tim that describes the woman as the ‘despot’ of the home? (In the Greek, of course…not the translation)
“She teaches them that i am the head of our house and that they are to respect and obey that. This is radically different to our culture and why the Bible gives such a beautiful picture of our relationship with Christ. Let me say that the normal picture should reflect Christ and the Bible- an egalitarian model does not do that.”
I did not criticize the fact that your wife asks the children to respect their father. I do say that IF the father does not reciprocate in a completely mutual way and teach the children equal respect for the mother, the result is chaos. I am saying that it is not enough for children to respect and obey their father. Instruction in the Bible is for children to respect their parents. This is essential. I am shocked at anything less. I suspect that you must teach the children to respect their mother, but perhaps you have not thought about it that way. Perhaps you do model equal respect for both mother and father. Perhaps your family is normal in this way.
Then let us admit that equal respect for both parents is normal, and putting one parent over the other causes serious dysfunction, since one parent cannot function as a parent.
Although I believe that “authoritarianism” is bad for children, I am the head of an orderly and respectful household. My children to respect me. I think you would find my home a peaceful and respectful place.
“This is radically different to our culture….”
Mark, this is an area that comps really beat on…the whole idea of authority. I understand it and agree with it to a point. I must also teach my children to think critically and spiritually and NOT follow evil authorities. This includes wolves in the church, despots, etc. I think we can learn from the Germans on this one. They used this position of respect for and obedience to authority and turned it into something evil and horrible for children.
There are some adults they should be civil to but I certainly hope they do not respect out of some misplaced duty.
Mark said,
“The way i see it in our western egalitarian, non-authority culture, children no longer have respect. Our children run wildly around since they are taught that there is no such thing as authority- this is a direct result of our culture and you want me to push my children head-long into it.”
In our household, both my husband and I encourage the children’s respect for the authority of the other. Our children respect both their father and their mother.
I wanted to ask for clarification in the example you gave, Mark. You said the children were at the table with your wife and you both present. The children asked their mother for permission to leave the table– with you present– and she told them to ask you. Is that right? It seems to me that your children must also respect their mother’s authority in the home, or they would have simply bypassed her and asked you directly. This is why I don’t think the situation TL describes (poignantly, from her own experience) applies in your home– for if your wife were “humbled” in that way, the children would know that it’s no use asking the mother anything, because only the father has any say. Since your children plainly do NOT know this, I agree with Cheryl that you are a good man who teaches the children to “honor your father AND your mother.” Sadly, many marriages use the doctrines of complementarianism to divest the wife of honor. There are homes in which “honor your father and mother” is lived out as if it said “children and mothers, honor the father.” I’m glad for TL’s input, because she shows how easily this can happen, if these doctrines are taken too far. I am glad you do not take them too far. Kudos to you.
But a Christian egalitarian marriage does NOT mean a no-authority family where the children run wild. It means that both the husband and the wife have equal authority over the children.
Kristen,
An excellent comment!
It was also very good to remind Mark:
For some reason comps often think that because we do not believe that the husband has authority over the wife that this equates to a no-authority home. The Bible clearly talks about the “law” of the mother and the father so there is not just one ruler in the family who sets out the family “law”.
Maybe it was the wife who knew better and not the children, because she believes that the father has the final say, so I wouldn’t be so sure of the children’s perspective…
TL was onto something in her comment #182
Is it a good thing that the father has final say over the mother’s?
Is that GOOD?
That’s about final say.
So my question is if the husband always has final say does the wife actually have any say – ever? (In Mark’s case)
Mark, would or could you ever agree to always telling the kids yourself that they need to ask their mother, even if they have asked you first?
So my question is if the husband always has final say does the wife actually have any say – ever? (In Mark’s case)
pinklight,
Clearly, logic will say “no.”
Hi Kay 🙂
So then in the example Mark gave, only the father actualy has any say.
And one question I have is, why? Why is the focus on the women or what the wife does?
This message is for Mark. I have copied my last personal emails to you and forwarded them from my ministry email address since your hotmail account is apparently not receiving my emails. I think the first resend you already received, but my answers you have not seen. I don’t know what else to do except to say that if you don’t get them now, could you please write me and give me another email address to use. Maybe sign up for gmail and that should solve any problems. This is quite baffling to me. I did have to resend a lady an email twice before she got it. She also had a hotmail account. Gmail had no problems receiving.
My wife and I have been following the recent discussion on authority, submission and Ephesians 5 with interest. Thank you to everyone for your comments. There has been much food for thought.
I wanted to check if we are on the right track. Any feedback would be welcome.
In Eph 5, wives are to submit to their husbands because he is the head of the wife. The church is to submit to Christ because He is the head of the church.
This can mean either:
Wife/church submit (obey) because husband/Christ is head (authoritative ruler) of wife/church OR
Wife/church submit (serve) because husband/Christ is head (loves, cares for) wife/church
The latter does seem to fit the context better and is a biblical concept- we serve Christ because he loves us so much and gave his life for us. The context is not that we serve Christ because he is the authoritative ruler of the church. So in the same way, wives are to serve their husbands who are to love and care for them, not because he rules with authority over them.
Craig – I’m not sure you can get directly to “serve” from the Greek for “submit” but you are on the right track. I would note that the Eph 5 verses to husbands certainly contain the idea of service to the wife, wouldn’t you agree? Christ does serve us as well as we serving Him so the biblical concept is not lost.
I also would encourage you to not lose sight of the fact that head/body is a metaphor. Paul is asking us to look at the relationship between the anatomical head and body and derive from that how marriage should work. In other places through the same metaphor, Paul indicates the mutual honor and symbiotic relationship that head and body have. In keeping with your idea – head and body physiologically certainly do serve each other, need each other, and cooperate with each other for the good of the whole person. Marriage should mirror this relationship.
Referring our children to their mom or dad has never been about a show of who is in authority. Rather, in our home it is about deference being shown to both the husband (dad) and wife (mom) because the other may be better equipped to inform the other’s decision or to make the decision. More importantly, for us, it is about “inviting the other parent” into a circumstance or situation and presenting a “united front” to our children, not about creating a scene that dad is in ultimate authority.
So, though we don’t have the exact custom Mark does for the dinner table, the scenario in our home would play out accordingly:
if mom were asked by a child to be dismissed prematurely from the table, she could remind the child of the family’s rule and dad would reinforce most likely with a joke or a fun challenge, etc. However, if mom chose to show latitude for reasons only known to her at the time she could excuse the child and dad would not feel threatened because he has full confidence in her and trusts her because he knows she brings him good and not harm. Or, mom when asked invites dad into the process, and they decide together. The latter is not too different from Mark’s example, except the motivation. The motivation here is to show deference and to use a natural occurence as an opportunity to present a “united front” not about a scene to show who is in ultimate authority.
Each example affirms the mom and dad’s authority in the lives of their children, shows confidence in each other, and models respect, deference, and two lovingly working together as one.
“And one question I have is, why? Why is the focus on the women or what the wife does?”
I have studied CBMW writings for some time now and have several answers:
1. Because men are the “authority” teachers and this is what they teach. If the “authority’ says this interpretation is correct, then it must be.
When they teach on the male ‘role’ they are vague as gengwell mentioned above: spiritual leader, final authority, etc. These are vague roles that can really cover just about anything the individual husband wants it to cover. They see themselves as God ordained authorities as both teachers and husbands. (Except that they should see themselves as servants. But they have managed to redefine servant as authority)
2. Because they must have women obeying these man made interpretations or the whole comp structure fails. So, they teach this in a way that makes it sinful for a women not to obey. They teach it to make women think that, in effect, she is NOT obeying God if she does not follow her ‘role’. So, this makes the focus on women. And it makes her the sinner. Have you noticed how they deal with abuse of various kinds? Piper says she should endure abuse for a season. See, she is righteous if she endures abuse. I often wonder if Piper would go to work each day and endure abuse from someone who claims to be a Christian? He could escape it by gong home. The wife cannot.
3. Many comp teachers talk about the husbands ‘role’ in such as way that is really silly. He is to love her…ok, how is that taught? Date night, flowers, telling her you love her. Very shallow sort of things.
Her “role” is to support him in whatever he does…this comes down to whatever he thinks she should do. Even down to being careful how you give driving instructions so that it won’t look like you are ‘teaching’ him.
It is all about elevating men. Which goes back to the fact that they must be insecure about who they are in the first place. Otherwise this would not be such a huge issue that has become a mass movement within Christianity and has more folks thinking about thier roles than their relationship with Christ.
What concerns me most is that they humanize spiritual counsel in Eph 5. The husband is NOT Christ. He is a fallen sinner saved by the same grace as the wife. But these men map themselves to Christ. Are not women to be Christlike, too?
Craig,
The reality is that wives care for their husbands. Women provide and protect their parents, husbands, children and other relatives. Women simply do fill this function as a matter of fact. In the NT women did this as well. In the social context of the NT, women were often dependent on husbands or other male members of the family for legal representation. But this no longer pertains.
217
Heavy. I’ll have to respond later to it. It’s a very serious matter the issue at hand and so I don’t know exactly how to address it. It’s depressing too.
“They see themselves as God ordained authorities as both teachers and husbands. (Except that they should see themselves as servants. But they have managed to redefine servant as authority)”
Hence the “servant leader” oxymoron
Craig #214
I am so happy that you are able to join us even if it is just in following the discussion. I believe that this is a very important discussion and that we can all learn from each other. If you have a comment or two, please feel free to jump in at any time.
Craig,
You said:
I believe that the second reason is correct but I also think that it goes beyond this reason for those men who do not know or love the Lord Jesus and who may not show love or respect for their wives. I believe that wives will submit to serve these unbelieving husbands also in ways that will cause them to see Jesus in them. This honors the Lord Jesus and may very well bring them to the Lord. So while it is much easier to serve a husband and receive from him when he is a believer who truly wants to love and sacrifice for his wife, we are also required to respect an unbelieving husband who has not yet come to understand that his wife is not beneath him but is his own flesh.
If all husbands would act first in love and sacrifice, their wives would have a very easy job to respect them, love them and serve them with joy in ways that honor them. It is not so easy to submit to a man who treats a wife like her submission is what belongs to him as his “right” and who uses that to selfishly get whatever he wants from her. I believe that being in the marriage as “head” he is the one who is to initiate the sacrifice first and what flows from that in his relationship with his wife will be peace, honor and love. Those who demand submission before they have a heart attitude of sacrifice are not doing what is required of them as “head”.
The entire mindset of patriarchy is male entitlement and you-do-it-first mentality that places the onus on the wife to initiate the sacrificial submission. While wives are to submit no matter the “attitude” of their husbands, I believe that the “head” place in the body is to “start” or “initiate” just as Jesus initiated our relationship with Him by coming to earth even when we didn’t know Him and we were still alienated from God. It is interesting that most pastors do not give this kind of counsel but look to the wife to be the “head” in initiating a sacrificial submission in order for him to “respond” in a good way to her. I believe that this is completely backwards to the “leaving” and “cleaving” that the man is called to do.
Lydia, how long has the focus been on the women?
Was the male”role” at one time the focus?
I agree.
Mark,
I realize you have several commenters and a host throwing questions at you on this thread and another. At your earliest convenience, could you look at #216 and respond to the following?
Are the options in the scenario at #216 biblical? If not, why not?
Are some or one option biblical but not others? If so, which ones and why?
Would your scenario at the dinner table be *more* bibilical? If so, why?
Only one brief comment becasue time is limited,
If my children ask me first to hop down, would i tell them to ask their mother aswell…no i wouldn’t.
My example does not say that the wife does not have authority over our children, nor able to make decisions. It simply shows, that when both parents are there, and an authoritative decision is to be made, i make it. My wife expects me to make it. Would she make the same decision if i were not there…of course she would.
I have never said i need to ‘take authority’ over my wife, as appears common in these threads. It is not about ‘taking’ the auhtority, it is whether authority exists. Even when authority exists we can choose not to obey it. I can choose to break laws, but it doesn’t mean that the authority to fine me, no longer applies.
My wife could equally choose to usurp my authority, since it is not in my opinion, my job to ‘take’. As i have said earlier, the Bible commands her and thus God, not me. If she chooses to reject God’s commandment, it is between her and God. Likewise if she chooses to obey God’s commandment, it is between her and God. I will never, and don’t ‘take’ or demand authority from my wife.
To apply it differently, when we moved house last year to another state, we discussed the issue, prayed about it etc. However, when the crunch time came and we needed to decide to do it, my wife left it to me to make the decision. In this process, i did not ignore her, abuse her, not take her feelings etc into account. Simply when an authoritative decision is to be made for us or our family, i make it. If i choose to make a decision deliberately to antogonise my wife, or to make life harder for her, is that reflecting Christ-no it is not. My decisions and thus authority, i always try to manage in a Christ like way.
Anyway i’ve said enough about my marriage.
Mark,
I appreciate your willingness to discuss this issue with an example from your own marriage.
You said:
What do you mean by this? Do you mean that your wife has no power or authority to make an “authoritative” decision when you are home? Also why would the simple matter of when children leave the table require an “authoritative decision”? When you say this it seems to imply that your wife doesn’t have the authority to tell the kids when they can leave the table. Are they many other things that she doesn’t have the authority to do? Does she had the authority to tell the kids when it is bedtime when you are home?
It seems like her authority is there when you are not home and when you are home you have an unspoken authority that claims the right to make all decisions regarding the children when the two of you are together. Is this how you see it?
How would we know if authority exists unless someone takes authority?
Secondly in your “authority” role can you give your wife the opportunity to make an “authoritative” decision when you are both there or would that remove your authority?
If you said nothing and your wife made a decision concerning the kids without deferring to you to make the decision, would that be disobeying your authority?
More to come…
Mark,
You said:
Do you have the authority to “fine” your wife for not deferring to your authority? Do you have the authority to punish her for making a decision regarding the children when you are in the home together and when she hasn’t asked you your opinion or given the decision over to you?
What type of authority do you actually have concerning your wife?
How could your wife “usurp” your authority? An authority can be usurped only if the authority belongs to one person and not the other. Does the authority over your children belong solely to you? If it doesn’t, and your wife makes a decision about your children, how could she usurp what also belongs to her?
Are you sure? Where does the Bible command that she make no decision about the kids when you are in the house? And does the Bible go further by commanding that she make no decision about the kids even when you are not in the house? Would it also be usurping your authority if she did that? Should she be calling you first to ask your permission to put the kids to bed if you are not in the house? How exactly does the Bible describe your wife’s usurping of your authority?
Mark,
You said:
That actually seems to come across as if you have no authority over her at all. That you have no permission from God to punish her as if it is none of your business as God will deal with her? Is this right? If you have no power or authority to punish her, then how is it that you actually have authority unless she actually gives you authority? If she gives you authority to make decisions that she could have made, doesn’t that mean that she has the power to give something that actually belongs to her too? Wouldn’t that mean that she is submitting to your equal right to make decisions and she is yielding to you, but that you do not have any more authority over the children than she does?
Mark,
You said:
This seems to confirm my earlier comment that it is your wife that gives you the authority. That you can’t demand she give you her authority. But rather that she can submit her “rights” to you but you have no “right” to demand that she give up her “rights” with the children?
You said:
Does this mean that she had no decision of her own so she let you make the decision? Or that she was not in favor of what you wanted but she submitted to your decision?
Mark,
You said:
May I ask if you made the “authoritative decision” to do what she wanted to do or did you make the decision to do what you wanted to do?
How about if you make a decision that you want to do but you don’t do it deliberately to antagonize her, but you still did not choose what she wanted. Do you believe that is reflecting Christ to her since you know better than she does what is good for her? Or how would you explain how your decision which is opposite of hers would reflect Christ to her?
Actually, if I may be so bold to say, that it isn’t your authority. It seems to me that you have no authority unless she gives it to you. If you do still have authority if she doesn’t surrender it to you, then how is that shown?
It is rare that I get to see inside a complementarian’s brain and try to understand how they think. I really appreciate being able to ask questions and any answers that you can give would be much appreciated. I think that we all appreciate knowing how and why you consider yourself to have authority of yourself. It sure seems to me that unless your wife gives you hew “right” to make a decision, thus empowering you, that you don’t really have any authority at all. Perhaps I am wrong about this but I fail to see how. Maybe you can enlighten me.
One last thing, Mark, did you get my emails this time?
Mark,
So you are saying that in the home both you and your wife have authority but you have ultimate authority or final say – in the home.
I think it is clear then what you are saying, if I’m not mistaken.
Right, Mark. It’s about what your wife does. She places herself under your authority – you don’t have to “take” authority over her. This is what Lydia pointed out.
Thank you Mark, for giving 227! I might have a few things to say more in response later.. Thanks again, Mark. It helps me understand where you are coming from.
I think Mark is saying that she indeed does have authority to tell the kids when they can leave the table even if Mark is present, but that she gives the descision power to the father as she believes she is commanded to do. So she has the authority because they are her children, but she doesn’t use it over the head of the home, the father.
Mark doesn’t have to exercise his “right” of authority because his wife places herself under his authority. It would be sin for her from her perspective (and Mark’s) to not give the descion power over to the father of the home.
Is this right, Mark? (Gotta double check)
That’s right!! If Mark cannot take authority (he doesn’t need to cause his wife gives it to him) then he doesn’t actualy have any authortiy. He only has what has been given by his wife, therefore the question is, if SHE DECIDED not give him this authority would he have it? The answer depends on whether or not he can at that point take the authority because she had no longer decided to give him authority.
The more I think about what Mark is saying, the more I believe that his wife is the key to his authority. He has not authority to force himself on her or to take authority over her so if she doesn’t give him his “rights” there is nothing that he can do. In other words the power is in the woman’s hands not in his. She gives him the right to make the final decision and she gives him the right to make an “authoritative” decision.
I would also like to know what Mark considers is an “authoritative” decision. Is it a decision that cannot be reversed? Is it final… that’s it…no-more-influence-will-be-accepted kind of “authoritative” decision?
Again, I give Mark a lot of credit in being willing to actually answer some of the questions that we have asked him. There aren’t too many brave comps around who will agree to answer these questions. So kudos to Mark.
I would like to know too, Mark. How is that possible?
YEP YEP!
He only has final authority when he’s physicaly under the roof.
Mark, oh come on…
*BIG GRIN*
😛
Nuff said. The power is in the WOMAN’S hands. 🙂
Cheryl said,
“The more I think about what Mark is saying, the more I believe that his wife is the key to his authority. He has not authority to force himself on her or to take authority over her so if she doesn’t give him his “rights” there is nothing that he can do. In other words the power is in the woman’s hands not in his. She gives him the right to make the final decision and she gives him the right to make an “authoritative” decision.”
Yeah, but I wonder if Mark thinks about it more like this: He has authority, but it is not Christlike to insist upon or take authority. After all, Christ has authority, certainly, but He lets us choose whether or not to follow Him. Even so, it must be up to Mark’s wife to choose to follow Mark. Logically, choosing not to force authority upon someone is not the same as not having authority.
Just trying to be fair. (grin)
I had a question, though. My husband has been working really hard on his final projects to graduate with his graphic design degree. (He’ll be done tomorrow! Yay!) After a presentation of his portfolio that he made to the faculty, his fellow students and their families, we both wanted to go have lunch. He was so tired that he had absolutely no desire to make a decision about where we should go for lunch– nor was he really capable of making a decision at that point because his brain was in a fog of fatigue. He did not come right out and say, “I want you to make the decision,” but I’ve been his wife for 22 years, and I know him. So I made the decision. I said, “We’re going to such and such a restaurant.” He nodded and (I know Mark will hate the way I say this) gladly submitted. (another grin)
If we were complementarians, would this be considered to be usurping his authority?
Or how about this: Supposing he comes home from school with a high fever and a cough. Suppose I take one look at him, lead him to the couch, press him down upon it, cover him with a blanket, and then go get medicine and a glass of water, hold them out and say, “Take this!” Am I usurping his authority? When he takes those pills, I’d call that “submission.” What would a complementarian call it?
This is awesome. I bet he does look at it the way you have described.
Back to those questions on the other thread, Mark, can you or can you not command? What can you do? Christ can command, insist, take, but what can you do? What real authority do you have?
Anti-spam = “real”
God can do whatever he wants, – that’s authority, but what can you do?
Do you really think that you have authority like God over another person?? (Though you choose not to use it)
I did not just have to ask that question, did I?
God’s (Godhead or the Father, your choice) given YOU authority, (and the Father gave the Son authority) over another person?
The more I continue with this thread the more is ridiculous in my mind.
My brother use to have real issues with “having authority”, and one day a prophet shows up to town to give messages to the small town’s church. The prophet told him (this is the only prophet I’ve ever met face to face that I know was a real prophet) that God had already given him authority. Thing is, my brother never understood what that meant. God’s given authority to us all in matters we’ve yet to even understand, but he certainly has not given any authority in the way comps believe he has. He’s given us all authority to protect, love, honor, build up…he’s given some authority to discipline, to teach, to care for the sheep, to operate in their gifts etc. But what he’s never given is authority to the sex chromosome or authority based on flesh.
I still contend that comps do NOT understand the authority that God gives – and to his PEOPLE.
@ pinklight (#246 and following): “The more I continue with this thread the more is ridiculous in my mind”. Precisely, and that’s why the authority argument is on its face not just ridiculous but farcical. IMHO, it all comes down to one thing: men trying to prove that women are inferior, and they are the superior ones. We wouldn’t be going round and round in these stupid circles with this infantile argument (essentially a p—ing contest) if there weren’t a huge (and obvious) dose of male hubris at play here. It will be denied but I think (and hope) I’ve been around long enough to sense pride at work, and there’s a lot at work in the writings of the complementarians (Grudem and Piper especially come to mind). Why else would they be hung up on submission, unless they felt like they had to defend “their” authority? That’s the $1,000,000 question, and until they can admit that that’s at least in part what’s going on, we continue in this ridiculous cycle, ad infinitum, ad nauseaum.(And if I butchered the Latin, mea culpa. Coffee and Coldplay aren’t enough to wake me up so far. Up too late celebrating my beloved Chicago Blackhawks winning the Stanley Cup!)
“2. Because they must have women obeying these man made interpretations or the whole comp structure fails. So, they teach this in a way that makes it sinful for a women not to obey.”
Lydia@217,
Yes, and I believe this is the hinge on which the entire comp/hierarchist’s door swings. That is exactly why their focus is on the woman’s role – getting her to supply the man/husband with authority. Notice how “soft” comps, like Mark and NN, would never say that the husband “takes authority over” or “enforces” his authority??
We have discussed this on Cheryl’s blog several times. They have designed the perfect Control Paradigm – since to even question it makes a woman guilty of unsubmissiveness, if not worse.
NN #173
TL #178
It is near impossible to know what NN’s point is, since he did not provide any commentary or synthesis of his thoughts with the quotes. Given his title, I suppose the quotes he has pulled are intended to say something about authority, although the word “rule” is used in the quotes and used according to the English definition.
I found the final quote he used very telling:
“My children,” said Aslan, fixing his eyes on both of them, “you are to be the first King and Queen of Narnia.”
“You shall rule and name all these creatures, and do justice among them, and protect them from their enemies when enemies arise.“
“Well,” said Aslan,”can you use a spade and a plough and raise food out of the earth?”
“Can you rule these creatures kindly and fairly,….” The Magician’s Nephew
I noticed Aslan’s instruction to the King & *Queen* resemble closely the instructions given in Genesis 1:27-28 to both the male & *female*:
“….He created them as male and female.28 God blessed them. He said to them, “Have children and increase your numbers. Fill the earth and bring it under your control. Rule over the fish in the waters and the birds of the air. Rule over every living creature that moves on the ground.” 29 Then God said, “I am giving you every plant on the face of the whole earth that bears its own seeds. I am giving you every tree that has fruit with seeds in it. All of them will be given to you for food.” “
cont…
Actually, Mark and NN try to soften it so much they redefine “authority” to be “male’s serving” when pinned down.
@254 – pardon the sentence construction…I need another cup of coffee 🙂
Mark @227 – That was quite an eye opening post even though it was brief. All of Cheryl’s questions would be mine as well so I won’t clutter things up by posting extensively. I would just say that, without any license to “take” your authority, and without any means to enforce your authority, it seems what you have described is simply your and your wife’s individual marital decision making paradigm. It hardly qualifies as doctrinal and I suspect that you would have a hard time arguing that my and my wife’s egalitarian decision making paradigm is any less legitimate or blessed in God’s eyes.
“As i have said earlier, the Bible commands her and thus God, not me. If she chooses to reject God’s commandment, it is between her and God. Likewise if she chooses to obey God’s commandment, it is between her and God. I will never, and don’t ‘take’ or demand authority from my wife.”
Mark is making my points for me here. This is exactly what they believe. Note that it is a one way submission and if the wife does not submit, she is disobeying….NOT ONLY HER HUSBAND…BUT GOD!
(Never mind Eph 5:21. It simply does not apply to husbands or evidently, pastors or elders, either)
This is why all the focus must be on what the wife does or does not do in comp teaching. It is as if the husband represents God to the wife and by not obeying the husband she is a rebellious sinner.
But where does Eph 5 talk about authority and obediance?
Now, who does the husband obey in this scenerio? Of course, the civil authorities (like his wife must, too) and the church “authorities” (as they deem them that are just like the husband in this belief) but then they believe the husband has some direct link to God the wife does not have. How else could they believe he is her spiritual authority?
Question: Does the wife have to obey the church authorities? If so, do they have final say over the husband if it comes to that?
The more you get past the general comp teaching and delve into the specifics, the more bizarre and legalistic it gets in practice. What are the lines that seperate basic comp teaching from Patriarchal groups? The lines are the degree’s of legalism they teach.
LOL – This soft comp approach is a pretty sweet deal for us guys. Let’s see, I get to redefine authority as “servant leadership” which sounds so much better than “king” or “boss”. I never have to actually punish my wife for disobedience which saves me from being labelled as an abuser, but I do get to shame her by claiming she is being sinful, which heeps all the condemnation on her and keeps me lilly white in the eyes of the church. And I get to be in charge even though God hasn’t told me I am because God tells her she has to let me be, which clears me of ever being viewed as an authority grasping tyrant. This is awesome! I can’t possibly lose! Sign me up.
pinklight: I have been involved with the comp movement since the mid 1980’s even before the Danvers statement was published. They have elevated this doctrine to a primaryteaching of salvation. So, if you are not submitting to your husband (they define as obedience) then you are rebelling against God and believers do not do that.
If you think about it, this controls every area of a woman’s life if she is married. Even her spiritual relationship with Christ and striving to be guided by the Holy Spirit instead of a human.
If you can get a copy of RK McGregor Wright’s 3 part response to the Danvers statment, do so. It was revised around 1990 but it was unpublished. However, I like Wright’s response because he is seriously into the Sovereignty of God and he shows how lame and lacking it is in scriptural basis and how badly the proof texts are interpreted. And the statement is the basis for the modern comp movement. it is the basis for the advent of CBMW.
Kristen,
You said:
Yes, you are right. However the question I still have is how do we know someone really has authority? With Christ we know that he has all enemies under his feet and he rules over them. He has authority to judge all lawbreakers whether they like it or not. Christ has true authority.
Now we know that each of us as believers also has authority. But what is that authority? We have authority over the earth and the animals and all spiritual authority that Christ gave us. But do we have authority to make decisions for other believers? If we did, they wouldn’t need to give us authority, we would already have it.
Mark shows us no way that we can tell that he truly has authority. We know that his wife gives him her own authority to make a decision, but we don’t see any authority that is inherent in him that would make it morally right to override his wife’s will.
Mark also has given us examples of how his wife has given him the right to make the final decision but he has not shown us through making those final decisions that he is sacrificing for his wife.
I think that however a husband and wife mutually decide to run their marriage should be up to them. After all if Mark were to sacrifice himself to make a final decision that would make them go his wife’s way, then what difference would that be to those marriages where sometimes it is the husband who submits to the wife’s desires? In the end it is the same thing. However if a wife gives the final decision to her husband and he uses that authority that she gives him to promote his own way every time, I would submit that she has given him the power to be selfish and I don’t think that should be something that is encouraged in men (or women!)
I doubt that Mark uses the authority conferred on him by his wife selfishly, but as he has described, it is authority conferred on him by her, nonetheless.
“This is awesome! I can’t possibly lose! Sign me up.”
LOL, gengwall, it does have the perfect appeal, doesn’t it?!!!
“I’m not the boss in my house. I don’t know how I lost it; I don’t know when I lost it. But I’ve seen the bosees job…and I don’t want it!” – Bill Cosby
I know plenty of women who are perfectly happy letting their husbands “wear the pants”. I also know plenty of men who are perfectly happy letting their wives “rule the roost”. The better question is not “who is in charge” but “what does God want”. Does God really want only one side of the “two become one-flesh” relationship to make the decisions; to have the authority? Is such a scenario even a true reflection of the design of either the two individuals or the unified couple? I find no evidence of that in scripture (or biology). It just doesn’t make any sense to me, and “two are better than one” and “a cord of three strands” and so much more in scripture teaches explicitely against it. Even worse, to actually abdicate responsibility and grant another authority you, Cosby’s humor not withstanding, is to deny both God’s design (for the individual and for marriage) and even His sovereignty (over the individual and the marriage).
Would I like it if my wife deferred to me in all decisions? Absolutely! Does that mean I actually want her to? Absolutely not! Why? Because sometimes I am ignorant and sometimes I am shortsighted and sometimes I am ruled by my flesh and sometimes I am downright dumb. Conversely, sometimes she is intuitive and sometimes she is insightful and sometimes she is led by The Spirit and sometimes she is downright brilliant. Why on earth would I trust me to decide everything for us when we do such a better job at it.
gengwall,
You said:
That is it! Why should one person be given the license to make every decision when two people coming to a mutual decision using both of their gifts and input from both is the best for both? If a mutual decision doesn’t come right away, maybe God is saying that more work is needed for a one-flesh decision. Giving only the husband a final decision-making power or authority is bypassing the hard work of mutuality. It may be an easy way out for a woman who isn’t used to making decisions, but how will she learn? Not by giving over her responsibility. And as I said, one person making all the decisions promotes selfishness and I don’t think any wife should want to promote that.
All this discussion on whether or not the husband truly has authority in the relationship he has with his wife, or is it that she simply treats him as if he does (in which case “authority” is entirely irrelevant).
Reminds me of a scene in the movie “My Boig Fat Greek Wedding”. Michael Constantine and Lainie Kazan (a couple married for many years with grown children) are sitting at a table in their family-owned restaurant with their friend or relative Andrea Martin. Lainie and Andrea have come up with an idea that would be a good solution to a problem they are all aware of. The success of this idea requires the participation of all 3 of them, including Michael. Yet they know that Michael would never buy into this idea because they are the ones who came up with it and not he himself. So they proceed to approach it all very obliquely, chatting about the problem, “wondering” about some “hypothetical solution” out loud with minimal description but enough for anyone to logically fill in the blanks. And lo and behold, “Eureka! I’ve found it!” – Michael comes up with a grand solution that he has claimed as his own, and “presto!” Lainie and Andrea’s plans are set in motion. A good solution that will benefit many people.
Everyone I was with when seeing the movie laughed, men and women, knowing that this is simply how it is.
I think it’s obvious that whatever “authority” the husband has is simply what the wife allows him to have. And it’s not so much authority as his “participation”. I just prefer to call it what it is rather than what it’s not.
Lydia@259,
Another side issue with this: I’ve encountered a number of young wives who get “into” CBMW/comp theology without/before their husbands are indoctrinated and then either manipulate their husbands into assuming aspects of “authority/headship” or lament the fact that their husband refuses to lead because the wives feel shamed for not being able to adhere to the “rolebook.”
“They have designed the perfect Control Paradigm – since to even question it makes a woman guilty of unsubmissiveness, if not worse.”
Further, in living among comp/hierarchalists, some men will not lower themselves to discussing it with a woman who disagrees. Such a woman who does not choose to inordinately adore the men in the church deferring everything of seeming importance to them and every doctrinal question to their decision, is seen as a rebellious unchristian-like woman. That is one way to ‘control’ the dissidents. Many men do not feel they need to qualify their beliefs on this issue to a woman who disagrees.
When there was a group of men in our church who applauded the book “Wild at Heart”, they started going around calling the women ‘beauties’. I made a few remarks that women were not just beauties or ornaments and I disliked the way the author characterized the women, I was viewed pitifully as if I didn’t understand the great gift I was being given by being viewed that way. But no one was willing to discuss it. 🙂
“I think it’s obvious that whatever “authority” the husband has is simply what the wife allows him to have. And it’s not so much authority as his “participation”. I just prefer to call it what it is rather than what it’s not.”
Elastigirl,
great scene. Thanks for sharing it. In many cases you are correct. It is just a way of gaining the husbands participation WHEN HE HAS THE IDEA THAT HE MUST BE THE INSTIGATOR. 🙂 If he didn’t think he needed to be the instigator than such staging wouldn’t be necessary.
However, we also know that many men take it beyond that and decide they must have all control.
TL – don’t get me started on Wild At Heart.
“It may be an easy way out for a woman who isn’t used to making decisions, but how will she learn? Not by giving over her responsibility.”
This is a key point. I remember my great aunt having a sweet marriage where the husband made all the decisions about everything he considered important, without discussing it with his wife. He ran the finances, buying and selling, trip arrangements and so forth. She busied herself with entertainment, cooking and home stuff. She felt she needed to be frilly and girly to please him. When he died she knew nothing about their finances, even tax stuff. She immediately began to make really bad decisions and lost a lot of the money he had saved up for her. One of them was a simple mistake to the tune of $50,000. She didn’t know how to take care of the house, yard, car and so forth. And even in her old age she continued to dote on men and be girly in order to impress.
Sadly, she could have been and done so much more as underneath it all she was really an insightful woman. But few saw that side of her. I did. She was my favorite relative. But she had been so brainwashed that the only way to please men was to be helpless, that I couldn’t get her to grow beyond that. What a loss to many.
“When there was a group of men in our church who applauded the book “Wild at Heart”, they started going around calling the women ‘beauties’.”
Can anyone say, “Objectify?”
….where’s my Pepto?….
“Many men do not feel they need to qualify their beliefs on this issue to a woman who disagrees.”
Can anyone say, “Pride?”
Kay – Eldredge has an abnornmal and quite fleshly, IMO, obsession with physical beauty. I wrote a series of posts on my blog a while back on Christians’ ungodly focus on beauty and a response to some parts of “Wild at Heart” and, even more so, the companion book “Captivating”, took up one whole post in the series.
But even more to the point of this post is the marriage-impacting reaction that some men have after reading “Wild at Heart”. I wrote another short post entitled ” ‘Wild at Heart’ does not mean abandon my family” after I personally witnessed a rather disturbing scene between a couple in a very dangerous time. I will not go into detail because the participants may chance across my writing this (they follow my blog) .
But, I will say this. Although I believe “Wild at Heart” is an important book because I agree with Eldredge’s premise that masculinity has gotten a very bad rap in our culture and the degradation of masculinity needs to be addressed, I think the book has inspired some unintended consequences. Men must not forget that masculinity has its dark side too. It is one thing to rediscover your wild side, it is quite another to use that discovery to fuel a Genesis 3 style “rule” over your wife. Yet that is the route that many men take on their exploration.
gengwall,
I loved Wild At Heart, for me. As I read it, I thought it might be awesome for men too. So I had my husband read it. It had a horrible effect on him.
“I’m a man. I can say what I want, be rude if I want. And if you tell me I can’t, you are trying to make me into a woman.”
It was awful. Instead of giving him spiritual freedom, it turned him into a jerk.
I love the idea of being wild and free in the Lord. I felt that book helped me with it because somehow God used it to help me. Guess I wasn’t indoctrinated enough at the time to realize that being wild and free didn’t really apply to me, a female created inside the garden…
Good thing for me. A pity for any woman reading it who couldn’t receive the wild and free part.
And a pity for men who couldn’t handle such information and used the liberty Elderidge tried to give them as an excuse to sin against their families.
A real pity.
gengwall@274,
Some time ago, I read your posts and appreciated them very much. Perhaps you are correct that Eldridge’s basic point is good – it would be great if you (or someone else) would write a book that’s actually biblically sound. Like say, one tempered with Christ-likeness as the mark for one’s aim….
re: SM#253 with reference to NN#173 & TL#178,
How come it is that when lotsa people are confronted with arguments they cannot reply to with their own salvos, they call in an airstrike from C.S. Lewis?
Is Lewis sposeta’ be the last word? I’d rather have self rule than the micro management of a benevolent tyrant anyday.
elastigirl #266
Once again, I think you’re spot on with the illustration from a film source! I think male rule and entitlement in marriage is largely titular in the real world anyway. Only those who want to make it part of a complicated religion get their drawers in a dither over it, because things have gone on like this since the world began.
“How come it is that when lotsa people are confronted with arguments they cannot reply to with their own salvos, they call in an airstrike from C.S. Lewis?”
Perhaps, they just don’t want to actually THINK about it. The danger is that we might have a point and then someone might have to adjust their belief system somewhat.
FWIW I’ve adjusted my belief system many times as I learn more about God and His Word.
That’s great! LOL You’ve taken my thoughts and put them down! Thank you! LOL Hahaha
Ewh *blech*
I’ve often thought that compism was men saying this to women:
“We won’t play house or church with you unless you let us be the boss while we’re playing.”
Dana, welcome to my blog!
Yes, and I have always wondered what men would do if women just quit playing. I think that everything would just grind to a halt.
“Another side issue with this: I’ve encountered a number of young wives who get “into” CBMW/comp theology without/before their husbands are indoctrinated and then either manipulate their husbands into assuming aspects of “authority/headship” or lament the fact that their husband refuses to lead because the wives feel shamed for not being able to adhere to the “rolebook.”
This is pretty typical. For one reason, more women tend to be involved in church than men and they pick up on this and take it home. I know one woman who waited 20 years praying for her husband to be the spiritual leader before she realized how much time she had wasted and her kids went lacking from her spiritual guidance at a young age. Her husband simply was not going to step up to the plate.
So, not only did her kids get short changed from her spiritual guidance but they were indoctrinated that the man has to do it in the home.
It is all so silly and senseless. It gets people focused not only on themselves but on others and their roles. Instead of on Jesus Christ.
gengwell, I know quite a few comps who cannot stand Eldridge for the reasons you give: Fleshly/worldly. one comp I know and like a lot says it is fairy tale stuff. And he is right. What if that “beauty” has a masectomy or a horrible disfiguring accident. Then what?
251
Alison,
Tell me about it.
I think they recognize their pride, but they ignore the sin. That’s what I think.
The whole thing is just ugly.
They are not a bunch of idiots. They are in rebellion! And their rebellion hurts people like a cancer.
Kay,
I didn’t get it at first. Now I understand.
Terrible.
I will look into it. Thanks, Lydia.
What a cop out if you ask me – especialy with the issue of pride and all.
My big concern which depressed me yesterday was that if the focus is on the women, the woman must become stepford in order for her to follow the man. I think this is the part of it all that makes me the most upset. (Ofcourse this doesn’t apply to all comp wives, not the point anyway)
As Lydia said, their doctrine falls apart without the women.
Prophecy I heard a few years ago – women will start to become like stepford wives. And this is why I asked how long the foucs has been on the women. Ofcourse the patri cults are worse, but it doesn’t matter essentialy cause it all comes from the same pool.
Focus on the women = stepford wives. It’s what the woman does! And this is why it’s a very serious matter.
Oh yeah and now it’s been made into a salvic issue – s t e p f o r d.
If you ever watched the stepford wives it has a real kink to the story. The men perpetuated it by means of a leader who turned out to be a robot created by a woman who just liked all the prettiness and neatness and the predictable male.
The hupotasso verb describing how a wife “is subject” to her husband is Hupotasso in the Passive Voice: A Wife’s Submission is descriptive rather than prescriptive )
Further contemplating the passive voice of the wife’s subjection as stated in Ephesians 5:24:
“Therefore as the church is subject to Christ,
so also the wives [to] husbands in everything” Eph 5:24
I have investigated other occurrences of hupotasso in the passive voice.
Question: The hupotasso verb below is also in the passive voice (different tense but passive voice).
“For the creature
was subjected to frustration
not willingly
but by the will of the one
who hath subjected the same in hope”
Romans 8:20
When did this occur?
What was the human female creature subjected to?
Hint: see Genesis 3:16
@ pinklight: those who are in rebellion often don’t see their rebellion until it’s too late. The key here is “often”, since the rebellion perpetrated by the comps is so well disguised that even they can’t see it for what it is, since they’ve manipulated Scripture and themselves so well that they are blind. They truly are blind guides for the blind, and eventually they will both fall into a pit.
You’re right, that their doctrine falls apart without the women. But thanks to stuff like the “True Womanhood” movement and other female-oriented comp stuff, winning the hearts and minds of comp women could be harder than we think. Seeing some of their stuff, slickly produced and sweetly manipulative, should tell us that we’re dealing with devilishly ingenious folks who know how to keep the leash six inches long, yet know how to do it in such a way that those on the collar end of the leash (the women!) don’t realize they are being manipulated and leashed. It all looks so good, like Alice in Wonderland’s Eat Me and Drink Me things, yet they do such damage. Mind control, anyone?
Alison,
There is another angle to this: Money. Comp movement, women’s ministries, marriage seminars, conferences, books, etc. It is a big money maker in Christian circles.
I would personally like to say that I don’t think we should make moral judgments about WHY people are comps. Many are simply following the Bible as best they read it. I would argue with their hermeneutic, but not with them.
For others, the “Stepford” kind we have been discussing (involved in movements like Quiverfull or True Womanhood), the problem usually formulaic thinking. They want certainty and controllable outcomes, and believe that by following a certain set formula, in marriage as well as other areas of life, they can successfully predict a happy outcome. But certainty is not granted to us in this life, and the desire for it, I think, comes from fear. Perfect love casts out fear, and I hope they let God draw them into more perfect love and trust of Him, whatever happens.
Then there are narcissistic personalities that, due to real mental illness, require control and domination. For these, patriarchalist doctrines are convenient ways to use God’s authority to create and uphold their own power. They need prayer and intervention.
Of course, comp or patriarchalist doctrines can and do feed selfishness and pride that is already resident in the human heart, as well. But many who sincerely believe comp doctrine, strive against selfishness and pride and are gentle and humble, serving those they consider subordinate to them.
Many times I have seen men who sincerely believe these doctrines and are Christlike in character, put themselves under considerable strain trying to serve their families while leading the household all on their own. By not letting their ezer kenego (“facing-them strong help”) come alongside as an equal partner, they are doing what God created Eve to keep them from having to do, for it is not fit that they should rule the creation alone. I feel sympathy for them and hope they will explore another hermeneutic that will ease the pressure on the husband and set the wife free.
Wow. You’re a mind reader ;P
“I have investigated other occurrences of hupotasso in the passive voice.
Question: The hupotasso verb below is also in the passive voice (different tense but passive voice)”
Who is doing the subjecting (tense) does make a difference. When we are to subject ourselves (in the passive 🙂 ) it is different than a situation where another controls our subjection.
*blech*
“gengwell, I know quite a few comps who cannot stand Eldridge for the reasons you give: Fleshly/worldly. one comp I know and like a lot says it is fairy tale stuff. What if that “beauty” has a masectomy or a horrible disfiguring accident. Then what?”
True. I actually was a little more blunt in my critique of the section “A Beauty To Rescue” in the book. I said – “what do all the ugly damsel’s in distress do in Eldredge’s world?”
I should make my position clear. I think “Wild At Heart” is an important book and I can recommend it, but with a big caveat regarding the afore mentioned section and an even bigger warning to not fall prey to pride and selfishness when exploring one’s masculinity. Scirpture, especially our current passage, needs to be used to temper any man’s testosterone rush when reading “Wild At Heart”.
I’ll add to the above, bringing it full circle….
The greatest way a man can express true masculinity, feel “manly”, and appear absolutely, irresistably “studly” to his bride is to live a life of sacrificial love as Paul exhorts us to do in Ephesians 5.
In the New Covenent Commentary Series on Ephesians, author Lynn H. Cohick makes some interesting statements.
“With its call for believers to submit to each other, the verb in 5:21 governs 5:22 and its instructions for wives to submit to their own husbands as to the Lord. Note that Paul qualifies ‘submit’ in both verses’ in 5:21 with the phrase ‘out of reverence for Christ’ and in 5:22 as ‘to the Lord’. Paul pictures each believer as submitting to Christ, and that is shown by submitting to the other members of Christ’s body. This participle can be interpreted as either middle or passive (being submissive or submitting yourselves), which affects the interpretation. The passive voice would imply that the person instructed has little say in the matter, while the middle implies some agency. This latter sense is preferred, as it matches the other active participles’ voice and it fits Paul’s point that believers should not act as though drunk (passively under the influence of another source) but actively make choices following the Spirit’s leading.” pg’s 136-137
TL,
This is an important observation:
“This latter sense is preferred, as it matches the other active participles’ voice and it fits Paul’s point that believers should not act as though drunk (passively under the influence of another source) but actively make choices following the Spirit’s leading.” pg’s 136-137”
I’ve enjoyed some of Cohick’s other works.