Matt Slick’s radio station to host “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?”
Below is what I posted on Matt Slick’s discussion board. I will add the day and time of the airing of “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” when the radio station gives me the finalized details.
Scripture warns us not to make a hasty judgment on a matter. When two sides have conflicting interpretations, those who wish to be Bereans should be willing to carefully consider all of the facts from both sides of the issue first in order to avoid making a hasty judgment.
In an effort to allow the hearing of the other side of the story on the issue of women in ministry that hasn’t been given a full hearing on Matt Slick’s radio show “Faith and Reason”, the radio station where Matt hosts his radio program has offered to allow the airing of the 4 DVD set “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” over four consecutive weeks in the month of February. Listeners will then be able to hear and judge for themselves if the teaching on the DVD set treats scripture respectfully and in context. The entire DVD set is 3.5 hours of teaching and will be broken down into 4 segments to air over 4 weeks.
Here in Canada it is a ruling that if one misrepresents a person, they are given equal time to defend themselves and to present their side of the story. In the US, this is also a fair ruling and I greatly appreciate My Family Radio Station in Boise Idaho for agreeing that this is a fair and reasonable solution.
I am sure that Matt will also agree that this is fair and reasonable when Christians have biblical disagreements. It is only when we can hear the full story that we can then be bible Bereans and make the choice for ourselves which side represents a better biblical view.
The dates and times of the airing of “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” on My Family Radio are posted below. The DVDs are a very visual verse-by-verse view of the hard passages of scripture on the women’s issue. Although the radio will not do justice to the DVDs in that there will of course be no video or graphics, the audio that will be heard should be thought-provoking.
You can listen live to the audio from my 4 DVD set at the following link. The listen button is at the top right hand side and it will allow you to pick the radio station that you want to listen to for the times listed below. The link is http://www.myfamilyradio.com/cms/index.php Remember the times are Pacific and if you are listening at Eastern time you need to add three hours so instead of 12 noon it will be 3 pm and instead of 4 pm it will be 7 pm.
KBXL 94.1 FM
- Saturday March 8, 2008 at 12 noon – segment one
- Saturday March 15, 2008 at 12 noon – segment two
- Saturday March 22, 2008 at 12 noon – segment three
- Saturday March 29, 2008 at 12 noon – segment four
KSPD 790 AM
- Saturday March 8, 2008 at 4 pm – segment one
- Saturday March 15, 2008 at 4 pm – segment two
- Saturday March 22, 2008 at 4 pm – segment three
- Saturday March 29, 2008 at 4 pm – segment four
(Note: after the announcement of the airing of my DVDs, Matt Slick increased his attacks against me to the point that in August 2008 I had a Matthew 18 meeting and traveled twelve hours to meet with him in the Boise, Idaho area. The link to the public statement regarding the outcome of this meeting is listed here https://mmoutreach.org/wim/2008/09/06/public-statement-regarding-matt-slick/)
84 thoughts on “Matt Slick’s radio station to host “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?””
That is great news. I’ll want to hear it. Will there be places to post comments after the airing?
Yes, that’s a great idea. I think it might be a good idea to make a separate post on each week and give opportunity to comment. Thanks!
What you posted on Matt’s discussion board has disappeared. Huh?
I would like to be able to post comments after the airing. Why was the thread deleted?
I’m surprised yet not surprised to see the CARM moderator (whoever she really is) take such a hardlined attitude toward Cheryl. The moderator said she violated a rule of advertising. It’s a stretch to call it that but not impossible. Anytime anyone told about something that was going to happen, that could be viewed as advertising.
But I do understand that because they have chosen to view the WIM ministry as against their personal doctrines, and to call anyone not agreeing with patriarchy as sinful, witches, against God, that it is reasonable that they would view this extremely negatively.
This is the mods note on it:
“For what it is worth, the Boise Radio station is not CARM, it is a business, they do permit false teachers on the station even the Roman Catholic apologists that are not Christians. Listeners to the station are very aware that the words of those buying radio time are not necessarily approved by true orthodox Evangelical Christians.”
On one hand because the CARM moderator has been calling us witches, liberals, lost, idiots, having idiotic arguments, etc etc, I’m thinking maybe this person shouldn’t be replied to at all anymore.
And because the person keeps banning people who question her authority. Another was banned tonight.
Wow! Are you serious? She has been calling you guys witches and all those other names? Pinklight, this just shows us what is in her heart. When Christians label other Christians with names like this over secondary issues of doctrine, the love of the Lord is not in them. We are required to love our brothers and sisters in the faith.
There is a foundational problem with Matt’s organization when it is based on attack and revenge. And apparently it isn’t just the Christians who disagree on minor issues who have experienced banning and name-calling. It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
By the way, did the other banning happen because of me or something that I did?
I asked why I couldn’t give links in my posts but others could. I DID NOT understand this. So when a poster tried to help me understand why, they got banned. Then next I was told I couldn’t ‘question’ their descions, as if I were questioning their authority. All I did was question about that which I could not comprehend.
These are things that happen when one has authority without accountability. We are supposed to accept that this is how God wants his church run too. Oh boy, this is so far off the way of our Lord and Master that honestly I am wondering how living under the Taliban might not be any different. Jesus never led his disciples to act this way. I am so sorry that you and other egalitarians have been treated to this abuse. Lord Jesus, I pray that you will right the wrongs and bring good out of the evil that has been done in your name.
‘These are things that happen when one has authority without accountability. We are supposed to accept that this is how God wants his church run too.’
Thanks for pointing that out.
‘Oh boy, this is so far off the way of our Lord and Master that honestly I am wondering how living under the Taliban might not be any different. Jesus never led his disciples to act this way. I am so sorry that you and other egalitarians have been treated to this abuse. Lord Jesus, I pray that you will right the wrongs and bring good out of the evil that has been done in your name.’
I pray too. Amen.
I caught what the other poster was banned for. He said in response to the other’s question: “if the CARM moderators do not like the websites you link to, even if they are Christian, they can call them liberal propaganda or anything else they want and delete them. It’s an autocratic government.”
They are indeed an autocratic government. It’s written in their rules that you cannot question a moderators decision or even comment about it. Zero accountability. It’s a terrible witness for Christ. And terribly revealing of what patriarchy is about.
Personally, I’m not sure that the moderator Diane S. is really a woman with that name. It seems more like a pseudo-name for someone like Matt. “Her” vocabulary and attitude seem too rough for a woman. 🙂
Justa Berean,
“It’s a terrible witness for Christ. And terribly revealing of what patriarchy is about.”
I agree. The thing I wonder about is are there no reasonable complementarians on that board who also see this as a poor example of leadership? If I was a complementarian, it would rattle my chains and help to set me free.
It’s rather like what Don says, they make doctrine and decisions to benefit themselves. The more they exercise that attitude, the more obvious it will be to observers who CAN see, where patriarchy leads. At it’s core, I believe patriarchy is an ugly belief system. Sorry to say that publicly.
This attitude is rampant among patriarchalist blogs and boards. Many don’t even permit comments, period. Others moderate everything before they permit it to be posted. Over on baylyblog.com, a poster named Suzanne who has studied Greek her whole life and was explaining the Greek got told to be quiet because she was spreading false teaching or something. Every time someone starts backing up their position from scripture on that blog, they are silenced. You know, it really isn’t any wonder why so many people refuse to even consider Christianity, considering how harsh and unloving Christians can be towards those who don’t share every jot and tittle of their opinion.
Light,
I read the post. What a shame when men take this authority over a woman to silence her.
Cheryl, I think you could bring a lot to the conversation over there. I noticed that they didn’t actually delete Suzanne’s comment, so even if they ask you and her to “be quiet,” an initial comment or two may be left standing to testify to the truth.
Okay, I put in my two cents worth. If the comment stands then someone may be helped. That may be all that I can do. 🙂
Thank you, Cheryl. I can no longer comment over there as I was banned last year. God will, of course, use all kinds of ways to reveal his Truth. I know many women have been helped to see the problems with patriarchy from comments over at the True Womanhood blog, and I’m sure it’s the same with readers here who may never have realized there is another point of view.
Now Cheryl, I’ve never seen you put in less than $1.50. ;-P
Is that message board still closed to lurker viewing?
Paula,
That is too funny! I guess inflation has done its work.
If you mean Matt’s board, you can only see it if you are registered. And if you are registered and you break one of their restrictive rules, you can’t see anything until they lift the ban. That is where I am at right now. My ban is lifted on the 29th.
I’m not joining his kingdom. He apparently has a lot to hide.
‘His kingdom’, LOL Another good one, Paula.
K, I laughed out loud over there in that kingdom, and was banned untell the 30th. This one poster had me in hysterics.
I had commented on what the comp position seems to amount to that is being male, gender, nothing else and that the woman’s gifts, knowledge, abilities, education etc amounts to nothing as she must be under a man. So a poster responds something like ‘it’s okay if the woman is preaching a message on stage, as long as a man is up there with her, even if it’s the janitor’, and I put up three laugh faces in response, (couldn’t stop laughing out loud) and was shut down, shut down for not being soo serious.
Least I can laugh here!
It seems to me that there is a definite plan to try to shut out the egalitarians because if they cannot shame them into leaving through name-calling, then they will take any little thing to shut them down. I believe there will come a time when there will be no one on the board who doesn’t completely agree with Matt Slick or who keeps silent and says nothing.
If there are any complementarians reading this who are ashamed at seeing the above actions going on under the name of Christian, please know that you are welcome here. We may not agree with you on the women’s issue, but if you are a true born again Christian you are our brother or sister in Christ.
Among gender hierarchalists, hard comps, patriarchalists and the like, the same disrespect, lack of humility, unsubmissive attitudes abound in the online forums. And skirting the issues in any way possible is also one of their patterns. CBMW just does not allow discussion. Perhaps smart since they likely would have a great deal of trouble with honest communication with those who question their doctrines.
I am always thankful to find places where respectful discussion is open to all from both sides of an issue. for that reason I would like to invite those who are looking for simple, honest and thoughtful discussion to try out the equality central discussion board as well. Not to distract from here, just a place in addition to.
http://equalitycentral.com/forum/
Hopefully, this does not offend our precious jewel Cheryl, for whom I am dearly greatfull for her research and gracious conversation.
Just in explanation. I’ve long been a lurker , following Cheryl’s conversations, here on CARM while I was there, and around. 🙂
Tiro3,
Welcome!! I am always glad to meet long-time lurkers. I feel honored that you advertised here about this respectful discussion board. I think the Christian community can use many, many more of these respectful boards. In my humble opinion, respect, honor and love should be part of our Christian community even if we disagree on these secondary issues. Gosh, one day I may find out that even I have an idea that might not be quite right 😉 When the shock dies down, I will be grateful for having my error brought to my attention by someone who treats me with love and respect. I respond well to that love and so I try hard to give it out in advance.
Coolness! And many blessings. Now I’m hitting the sack. 🙂 🙂 🙂
Wow what great news! Jesus Christ may your grand name be glorified through this broadcast!!
Now, will the audio of WIM be available in an electronic format on the net? Like mp3?
In Jesus,
Martin
Hi Martin,
I don’t think the radio station does a podcast. I think the only link they have is for listening live. I will be announcing the dates and times as soon as I get them.
just saw some of the conversation on Bayly Blog. Having been involved in online conversations with comp/patri/hierarchalists, for many years, I’ve learned that they often, very often, resort to character assassinations and petty slanders in order to detract from the fact that they cannot refute well researched Biblical discussion that counters their traditional stances.
One of the most important things I’ve grown to understand is not to get personal with them no matter how much they bait. Reveal little to nothing of your own personal life there, because it will only be twisted and criticized to their advantage (they think). Stick to Scriptural discussion with the utmost politeness as much as possible.
When they don’t want to actually discuss the issues, they step back and sic their pets on you. The pet gets freedom to say the things they know would be way out of line for them to say, thus they still look good. And the pet thinks she/he is getting special privileges. Its a sad sad picture for everyone. I’ve seen good Christians completely changed into cynical, raging bulls barely able to speak honestly or kindly anymore, and completely unable to think independently of their new party line.
There are many places I don’t post anymore because of these things.
Tiro3,
Great wisdom that you have shared! I am relatively new to the blogging world where I have regretfully seen that the attack is the favorite way of handling an inability to give a valid reason for one’s own belief. What I have figured out is to never answer a mocker. If we answer them, we get pulled into their trap.
Psalms 1:1 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!
Proverbs 1:22 …And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing And fools hate knowledge?
I agree not to answer a mocker, lest you get pulled and pushed into the trail way they are baiting one with. Good Scriptures. Sometimes, it can be very difficult not to say something. But I’ve found that the best thing to do is to restart or continue on the discussion train one was already on and just refuse to be side tracked.
1 As snow in summer and rain in harvest,
So honor is not fitting for a fool.
2 Like a flitting sparrow, like a flying swallow,
So a curse without cause shall not alight.
3 A whip for the horse,
A bridle for the donkey,
And a rod for the fool’s back.
4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
verses 4-5 are interesting. 🙂
Yes, indeed, much wisdom from the book of Proverbs.
I take this to mean (verse 4) Do not participate in a fool’s foolish argument or you fall into his (or her) foolish trap
(verse 5) Answer a fool in a way that refutes his foolish talk lest he think you have no answer and he becomes wise in his own eyes.
I see verse 4 as not entering into the fool’s argument and verse 5 as encouraging a rebuke of the fool with a word of godly wisdom that does not follow the fool’s path but overrides it. This is the way of the wise and I need to keep reminding myself that the taunts of the fool are merely the fool’s folly. Never, never go there.
Sounds like that would be the gist of it. I wonder how it looks in the original Hebrew. Must be some unusual word usage going on there.
🙂
are you the Cheryl who was in the CADRE? I met you on carm, if you are her. I see you are aware of Matt Slick so maybe you are. Well you have a great a blog and I’m linking to it.
Hi Metacrock,
Welcome! I was on CARM as WIM but often I signed my name as Cheryl at the bottom of my posts. There could be another Cheryl too, I don’t know. I don’t know what you mean by “who was in the CADRE”. Either that means that it went over my head or there is someone else who knows what that means 🙂
Tiro3,
The Hebrew for Prov. 26 is here http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/pro26.pdf
You will notice two things about the differences between verses 4 & 5. The first thing is that verse 5 is in the emphatic. This is shown by the notation “!” as “answer-you !” so it literally means to make sure you do this which is to “answer”. Secondly you will notice that in verse 4 it says you-shall-be-equal to-him. This is the reason not to answer a fool.
This is where the wisdom comes because we need to determine whether to answer the fool or not. If we answer a fool in his wisdom or rather his folly, we become equal to him and we are told not to do that. However verse 5 tells us emphatically that we are to answer him. The second type of answer is not the one that is equal to the fool’s own folly (verse 4) but it is a real answer, one that will put him in his place and not allow him to think that his stupidity is truth.
Is this helping to make sense using the direct English translation of the Hebrew?
Tiro3,
Let me give you an example of the way I understand these two verses so that they will make sense. If a fool says to you “na-na-na boo, boo, you are ugly and you don’t ever read the bible”, this is the fool’s folly and you should not come down to his level and answer a foolish attack. But if the fool says “there is no bodily resurrection because what if a cannibal ate the person, how could God resurrect a dead body when it is within another living body?” you can answer this one because although it is also foolish, if you leave him without an answer then he thinks he has proved that there can be no bodily resurrection.
Does the difference between these two seem clear? By the way, I got that great “na-na-na boo-boo” from my granddaughter. It seems like this is 5 to 6 year old sillyness thing that can irritate other 5 or 6 year olds into starting a fight. I hope that we as Christians leave aside the old trap of a fool’s “na-na-na boo-boo” comments and ignore them. 😉
This is where the wisdom comes because we need to determine whether to answer the fool or not. If we answer a fool in his wisdom or rather his folly, we become equal to him and we are told not to do that. However verse 5 tells us emphatically that we are to answer him. The second type of answer is not the one that is equal to the fool’s own folly (verse 4) but it is a real answer, one that will put him in his place and not allow him to think that his stupidity is truth.
That was very good. The point of which was emphatic also helped. Our English misses so much. I also appreciated the na-na-na-bo-bo. LOL Kids do teach us a lot and that without even trying. 🙂
Hi Cheryl! I’m a friend of Tiro, and followed her over here. I love this place already, and I’m putting a link to you on my blog.
Welcome SingingOwl,
I hope you enjoy the community here. I don’t post as often as I would like. I am in the midst of writing and scripting our newest DVD on the Trinity so I will be sporatic in my posts here but the community on this blog is great.
I listened to the one program that you did with Matt Slick and found it very difficult to do so because he kept interrupting you.
I am very glad (did I read correctly?)he will be airing the series.
Hi “SAM”,
Welcome!! Well Matt is responsible for the series airing on the Boise radio station but it is not what he wants. The DVDs will be played on the radio station that hosts Matt’s program but it will not be during the time of his own program. Because Matt has misrepresented my views on one of his radio shows in December 2007 and in that program he labeled a false caricature as my own teaching, and since he has spoken against me for months on that radio station, I have been given a fair amount of time to present the truth of the “other side of the story”.
In the radio shows that you listened to, it was difficult for me to get my point across. Not only was I not used to live radio having never done “live” or “radio” before, but Matt took a very adversarial stance against me when he had promised that he would be polite and respectful. I found him neither polite nor respectful. Instead of being polite he kept on interrupting me and on the second show he accused me of being the one who was not polite! Well, at least good has come out of this unfair treatment and for that I give all the glory to God!
It can be very intimidating to talk on live radio – I think you handled yourself well considering his condescending and arrogant attitude.
I praise God that the subject is being given the time it deserves! May God continue to bless, strengthen and guide – and open Matt Slick’s heart to hear the truth!
“May God continue to bless, strengthen and guide – and open Matt Slick’s heart to hear the truth!”
Amen! And may Matt’s followers have their eyes opened up too so that they may escape the world of the mockers. They shall know that we are Christians by our love not by our mockery of our own.
Amen and Amen!
Don Johnson has been doing something on the CARM board that I find very impressive. such as this quote…..
“If you want to be set free, I can help and will explain more”
I think it is a very wise thing to answer in a similar manner as this and then offer to help. Just saying “I can help” can be a humble submissive response that reeks of inner strength.
We should be willing to learn from each other of the strengths we have.
Justa Berean,
That is a great way of answering from a position of humility yet strength. I had never thought to answer this way. Kudos to Don.
Sadly I have to report that yet more good people have been banned from CARM by the VP for disagreeing with her on the feminism board. Others caught her out telling a fib about the reason for the ban and they too were banned. Needless to say all ‘offending’ posts were deleted from the board but not before they had gone out by email to those of us who has subscribed to that particular topic so we do have a record of what was said.
Elizabeth,
Welcome and thank you for letting us know! It is such a shame that these kind of tactics are happening with those in an apologetics ministry who are there to uphold the truth. It appears that denial and accusation are the favorite attacks and when that doesn’t work then removal of the evidence is the next best thing. Sometimes I wonder what the game plan is. If they continue to remove everyone who disagrees with them, then it appears they are acting like a cult. This is how cults get 100% agreement among their members. They remove those who do not agree and the way they do this leaves those who are silently in disagreement afraid to speak up. This is not God’s way.
I was in a church once where the pastor actually took pride in “getting rid of dead wood”. He went through the denomination splitting churches and blamed it all on people not being able to tolerate the truth. Amazingly, the denominational leaders knew of this and did nothing to him. This was 30 years ago.
It seems this sort of spirit lives on and prospers, and it spreading rapidly on the net. Rick Warren has the same mentality: get rid of dissenters. It seems this “control freak” business is a characteristic of the “kingdom now” dominionist wave, and of course features keeping women in their place. Divide and conquer, and prepare the antichrist’s kingdom.
As I’ve said before, who needs them? They have no power over us. We want to inform the multitudes of women that they have been lied to, and these controllers won’t have it. But until and unless they gain the power to keep us from preaching online, we can reach anyone. We just need to set up our own public places like these blogs, because they are not yet under antichrist control.
Maybe we need to just be like a lighthouse, warning of danger and pointing the way to safety. We need not continually present ourselves as punching bags for the amusement of this antichrist spirit. I no longer care to endlessly dance with it and try to reason with it. I have no interest in having “dialog” with it. I can only oppose and expose it.
I have noticed on CARM that those in opposition to women preachers (particularly the VP and Christdependent) are becoming more and more viscious in their attempts to prop up their misguided beliefs – even going so far as to describe supporters of women preachers as witches. I can understand some men who have overinflated egos and a grossly exaggerated idea of their own importance, getting a little nervous when their perception is that women preachers will whittle away their ‘powerbase’ but why are women so hysterically opposed to it? Incidentally, in the past 2 or 3 days the CARM site has been changed so that one does not need to log in to read the posts on the boards. I have been banned for a month so I cannot contribute to the discussions at present but at least I can see what others are saying.
Okay, I bit. I looked at the CARM board. For a short time. Then I took some antacids.
Unless I am very much mistaken, the Feminism board has been removed from the CARM site! I wonder why?
probably because I was kicking thier asses in debate..
Then you’re lucky you didn’t get kicked out of CARM like the rest of us or kicked off that board like Caleb 🙂
Curiouser and curiouser. Members who log in can see the feminism board but guests cannot, although they can view all the other boards. What is it she doesn’t want guests to see? She did put something on the other day about looking at blogs etc. to see what people were saying about CARM
I actually am a moderate complementarian but I am appalled at things I am seeing the CARM board. I am a complementarian because I feel it is the most humble position for me to take but I see llittle humility shown by most of those women who are supposedly advocating womanly meekness and submission. What a complete and total disconnect between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.
-Lilly
Lilly,
Welcome my sister! I hope that you feel loved here and respected as a sister in Christ. The lack of brotherly love on CARM has been a source of frustration for me. It has been difficult to understand the bitterness that comes from those who should see that this is a secondary issue not necessary for fellowship in the church or necessary for salvation. Sometimes I think that God allows this kind of attitude for his own purpose. One of the things that God uses it for is to open the eyes of his children to see the difference. For that I am so grateful to God! He can even use evil for his own good purpose. I can’t always get my head around how he does that, but he is able to work all things together for good to them that love God and are called according to his purpose. I am grateful dear sister that you have seen a side that is often carefully hidden. This is what has caused many to leave that “camp” as they cannot justify this kind of vitriol against other brothers and sisters in Christ. May it never be said that true brethren should treat each other this way and still say that they love God. How can we love God whom we have not seen and hate our brother whom we have see?
Elizabeth,
I was amazed that CARM opened up their boards for the world to see. I didn’t think it would last long. I am not surprised that they have closed the feminism board from the eyes of the world. It is in this forum that the true nature of the leadership of CARM shows the best (or rather the worst!) But God is not blind and he has seen the hurt that has been caused many of his children. Jesus talks about a servant who beats the fellow slaves of God (Matt 28:48-51). It is not a pretty picture. The good shepherd pays attention to when his sheep are hurt and he is the one who will call the abusers to account. May the Lord turn their hearts back to him before it is too late.
And I got banned again! here is why:
You have received an infraction at CARM.ORG – Christian Discussion Forums. Reason: Grievance violation, Neg. Comments to Admin/Moderator Actions on Forums, Email, Pm Results in immediate Suspension——-Refusal to follow grievance——- This infraction is worth 60 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire. Original Post: http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=2580518#post2580518 —Quote——Quote (Originally by WIM)—I have noted your threat. For your information our ministry has not been removed from the web because the government cannot stop us from serving the Lord nor force us to say that all religions are equal or stop speaking the gospel to the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons. Your unloving attitude towards other apologetics ministries who are egalitarian, is noted. God has heard your words and he sees the attitude of your heart. This is why you cannot leave this discussion board. I will be posting your comment on my blog for all to see so that they can see your attitude.—End Quote— It *IS* telling that the WIM blogs are open for anyone to read as are the dicussion boards of CARM, *EXCEPT* for this one which is only available to those who join CARM. The reason that was given was as follows: “having problems with Trolls on that forum, when the behaviors clean up, the board will be turned back on to the public” :confused:
CARM must be running really scared on the ‘women’ issues to give out 60 points for that.
Elizabeth,
Sure glad you stopped by and let us know what happened to you! Well, this just disproves CARM’s VP’s assertion that banning only comes from serious violations of the rules. I disputed her “facts” and her banning people and she called me a liar and, well, here we go once again. She just can’t help herself. What you said above is true and provable and there was nothing at all nasty in it. In fact it was very kindly said. 60 points!
I have just emailed her informing her that her accusations against me are unfounded. I have made no grievance, I have not made a negative comment to an admin/mod, I have not sent anyone at carm an email prior to the one I have just sent and I can’t pm anyone at carm – only subscribers can do that. So not one of her accusations is true and I am not going to let it go unchallenged.
I can only assume that the woman has some sort of problem coping with people who disagree with her point of view and she can only respond with gagging orders and false accusations.
Elizabeth,
Yes, but she will deny it to the death. As long as she continues to deny her own actions, it should be easy for her to think that she is not accountable. What happens here on this earth is not the end. There will come a heavenly accounting one day and no one will be able to deny the facts then.
So onward to the VP’s argument coming soon… We will have a good time discussing these doctrinal matters even though she has refused to join us. She can’t say that I didn’t try to give her a voice on my blog.
Cheryl, I came over from CARM to see your site and find out about your position. I must say that I’m sadly disappointed. I was looking forward to seeing something uplifting, but instead I find the same name-calling and derogatory comments that are on the other boards. I thought that you said you removed all those comments, and was looking forward to seeing what you claimed.
wanderer,
It is interesting for you to say these things. How many posts have you read? The kindness that has been granted to CARM’s VP while she has threatened to sue me is proof that the “spirit” that is on CARM does not reside here.
Much blessing,
Cheryl Schatz
Cheryl,
I have read a fair amount on CARM, and am currently reading through everything on your blog, since I haven’t been here before. As Christians, what we allow to be associated with us should be blameless, especially for those in ministry. I am trying to say this gently and with love, so please do not misunderstand me. I just don’t know why people are allowed to speak ill about others here if you do not personally believe that it is acceptable.
wanderer, I have to wonder just how many posts on all CARM forums, you have acquainted yourself with.
The rules of CARM say that you should not discuss another poster disparagingly and yet this happens and reports to moderators are ignored. Because the rules only speak of other posters as individuals and not groups then groups are spoken of unkindly time and time again.
Does this mean that speaking unkindly of other groups is acceptable to CARM and that speaking ill of another poster is acceptable to CARM depending on who is speaking?
To speak unkindly or untruthfully about any person or group of people is never acceptable whether it is done privately or publically and perhaps we are all losing sight of the fact the God sees ALL that we ALL do and say and will make His judgement in His own way.
PS. And by the expression ‘we all’ I do mean all, not just posters on CARM and contributors to this blog
I see this as another case of only seeing the victim defend herself, never the bully who started it.
We Christians are not to take Jesus’ “turn the other cheek” to the absurd extreme of making ourselves punching bags for all who take offense at us. Did not Paul write disparagingly of legalizers, even using some very crude words? Did not Jesus call the Pharisees many names? There is a time to humbly take abuse, and a time to defend.
So Wanderer, we are simply refuting the baseless charges CARM is making against us. CARM has never backed up its charges, but Cheryl and others here have used direct quotes and references to back up their defenses. If this defense is to be seen as no different than the attack, then you believe Christians should never stand for justice, never defend the victim, never put truth over falsehood.
Even without going to their board at all, you can see here how some from CARM have made personal attacks, threats, feigned concern, etc. Yet Cheryl has never returned these in kind. Every defense is backed up with evidence.
Christians must learn to discern, especially between attack and defense.
Paula,
You make a good point about us being able to discern the difference between an attack and a defense. When someone is attacked and they defend themselves, we do a disservice to them to equate their defense with the attack that has been leveled against them. There were times when Jesus was silent when he was being attacked and times when he not only defended himself but he also put the opposers in their place and called them white-washed tombs full of dead man’s bones. The wisdom is always to know when to be silent and when to make a defense or come to someone’s defense. When the body of Christ is coming under attack by those who cause division, it is a time to speak out and expose the attacks, the lies and the hypocrisy. These are the times that I personally cannot be silent and I cannot silence those who are wanting to stop the insanity.
And I know well the fine line of being the owner or admin of a blog or message board. I had to shut down a board I’d been running for many years, because newer members felt they had the right to bash others but that the admin did not have the right to ban or restrict them. It seems there are many believers who think “turn the other cheek” is for everyone but them. But you’re right, it’s impossible to please everyone. No matter what you do, someone will say you were wrong.
My philosophy on internet communities is this: the owner makes the rules and can do whatever they want; it’s their “home”. They pay the bills, they take out the trash, they guard against hackers, they are responsible for the whole thing. If I don’t like how a board is run, I leave. I don’t stay and stir up opposition, I don’t spread hate about them elsewhere, I don’t tell them what to do in their own house. I just leave.
And it hurts.
But in Christian boards, there is an added element of spiritual responsibility. If the owners are not acting in accordance with basic teachings of the faith and practice, it is the duty of others to warn them. But this warning must be restricted to spiritual issues. If, for example, an admin tells lies, defames people, “stalks” them elsewhere, etc., the others should warn them of these sinful acts. But if the warning is not heeded, the owner cannot be told what to do; it’s their house. However, the ones who warned have every right (and responsibility, IMHO) to make the Christian public aware of the spiritual state of that board.
In this case between CARM and WIM, CARM was openly allowing Cheryl to be defamed and libeled. She was there to try and voice her scriptural opposition to their teachings, but they responded with banning and public lies and threats. She therefore has every right to expose them here, both as a Christian and as a blog owner. They can’t tell her what to do in her own blog, any more than she can order them around in their board.
So it’s very important to recognize the rights of the “homeowner”, but also the responsibilities of all Christians to each other. Keeping those two principles separated isn’t easy, but it’s vital.
First, I do not determine what the rules are at CARM, but I do my best to follow them, even if I do not agree. I am not simply coming here to attack somebody who is a “victim” but to see what the person has claimed to be. I came, expecting to see a completely different world where there were no attacks or harsh words directed towards others. I did not find that, and I do realize there is a difference between attacking and defending. What I don’t understand is people saying, “they did it first,” because that is pushing responsibility for our own actions onto others. Our actions should stand alone.
I assure you, I have also freely spoken about my concerns at CARM, in the appropriate manner. I was not banned for doing so, as I strived to do it with love and truth. Please do not insinuate that I am only focusing on one aspect, as you do not know the whole story.
I also understand that Cheryl owns and manages this blog, and what she allows is just that. I am not disputing that in any way. I was just expecting a different attitude after seeing her posts. I understand the desire to teach people the truth, whichever side of an argument people are on. What is disappointing is that so many Christians seem to forget that we are to show the fruits of our faith in what we do, and we should not do things that cause another to stumble.
I will respect your opinions that people who do not agree may leave, and do so. Cheryl, I thank you for responding to my posts.
“And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ– to the glory and praise of God.” — Philippians 1:9-11
Wanderer wrote: “I just don’t know why people are allowed to speak ill about others here if you do not personally believe that it is acceptable.”
I’m sure you are aware that there is a difference between complaining, and limited whining about being attacked by others and actually starting an unfounded attack on someone. Because CARMS moderators themselves call those who disagree with them foul names and question their Christianity in long drawn out repeated posts, this opens the door to others who agree with their interpretations to do the same. The victims of this verbal abuse have NO grounds of complaint because the moderators perpetuate it and it is not allowed to complain of treatment by the moderators. One risks repeated suspensions at the whim of the moderators and eventual banning also at the whim of the moderators. This is difficult to emotionally survive under. It is spiritual abuse. There needs to be a place where an individual who has been treated this cruelly can get some nurturing fellowship. Cheryl has been kindly providing that. So yes, there is a limited amount of complaining on this blog over the harried abuses taking place on CARM.
When they start fabricating lies in order to make their opponents look bad, it gets trickier. There is always the question of whether it is more spiritual to be quiet and let the lies fly or is it more productive to correct them before they start to effect the good ministry a person has in Christ. I don’t know the answer to that. Maybe a little of both is a good response. And maybe it’s a case by case thing.
In any case, may I recommend that we do not judge our brethrens decisions too harshly until we have walked in their souls predicaments and can say we’ve seen the difficulties of their choices.
This reminds me of something I blogged a while back, before any of the current issues, and concerning several other message boards not related to this one:
Christian Living vs. Day Care.
wanderer,
You said:
You are completely correct in that none of us but CARM itself determines its own rules. However, the godly thing to do is to apply these rules equally for everyone. When I first started posting on CARM, I was appalled at how much attack was allowed by those who seem to be the “teacher’s pet”. While I did see some legitimate warning for those who did speak out of turn, there appeared to be a real attitude of turning a “blind eye” to those who support CARM in every area and who speak harshly to anyone who disagrees with anything that CARM stands for. This double standard is what has caused many to be dismayed. If the rules were applied across the board in a fair way, I don’t think anyone could really say much. But the rules are only applied to the letter of the law against those who disagree with CARM’s position especially on the secondary issue of women in ministry. If I remember right the first time I got kicked off was because I made a statement about the unequal way that people were treated. “christdependent” was forever “in my face” calling me very unkind and nasty names and questioning my motives and my character, yet nothing was ever done to stop her rants against me or others. I reported her as the rules said to do and when nothing was done, I questioned why she was allowed to continue the nasty words.
In this forum, I do want a safe place for all, not just for egalitarians. So if I find someone harshly attacking another person, I will do something about it. If it is a complaint about the way they have been treated, I do let them sound off as long as they are not doing a “christdependent” kind of attack. When I was on CARM, I did not reply to “christdependen’s” attacks. I completely ignored her, but one cannot ignore when the moderator of the board goes on the attack saying lies and attacking people’s characters. This is ungodly and if the good say nothing, the evil will continue.
So while I completely agree with you that rules are rules and if one doesn’t like the rules, they may need to either adjust or move on, the unequal application of the rules is a worldly thing, and has nothing to do with a Christ-like attitude.
I do hope that you will stay around long enough to read my posts on marriage and why women don’t wear headcoverings and why women are not to be completely silent in the church. Another good place to start reading about the necessity for a kinsman Redeemer is my post on Adam as head of the family.
http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/20/adam-as-head-of-the-family/
You will find also that there is a real openness here for complementarians who love God’s word and who are respectful to those who disagree with them. We are the body of Christ and we are called to have a very special love for each other because by loving each other we show our love for Jesus.
I also invite you to post your views of women. We would love to hear from you whether or not you agree with anything we say. I have always welcomed complementarians to this forum and I want to assure you that we consider this issue a secondary issue in the church, not an issue that should divide us from fellowship. You are completely welcome here and we would really love to hear what you have to say.
Paula,
The post that you linked to actually made me laugh. You certainly are not a “blah” person! I have had opportunity to personally give you a word of encourage to take it a little easier on some whom you were offended at, and I think you did hear me, but all in all “blah” would never cross my mind regarding you! I have always said that I love passionate people. Yes, passionate people do have a chance to step on toes, but they also bring some spice to life. Paula, I must say you really are a spicy kind of gal. You fight hard, even against me at times, but I have never been offended yet. Truth is worth fighting for and if my truth can’t answer the hard questions, then it won’t stand the test when I step up to my next radio debate. Now as far as a radio debater, I am a “blah” but working on it 🙂
Paula, loved this blurb from the Words of a Fether link:
“but many newbie Christians think nothing of being very rude and abusive to more experienced believers. Young punks insult seasoned disciples with impunity, but if the seasoned ones defend themselves they get reprimanded by the “behavior police”. Where are these “police” when the kids start their rants? Why is discipline only dished out against the victims and not the attackers? Why are they so nice to the wolves and so repressive to the sheep?
Cheryl,
Yeah, as I sometime say, I’d rather be wrong than spineless. (Not that being wrong is a good thing, but that being the kind that won’t take a stand is worse!) Glad to brighten your day.
Just A Berean,
Tanx. 🙂 It’s a sad state of affairs, and all too common. It really does apply to the discussion about 1 Timothy as well, since that’s about people teaching who don’t know what they’re talking about. But in all fairness it isn’t limited to Christians. Atheists tend to think themselves “scientists” when they’ve had only 2 years of college, and some politicians and actors think themselves experts on climate. 😉
New tactics on carm. 1/ Close the topic to those whose opinions make you feel uncomfortable but don’t tell them and don’t put post anything on the topic. That way people will just think he/she has got bored and gone away and won’t know he/she has been shut out. 2/ Call people ‘Cheryl’
(I’m away on holiday now for a while but will be back 🙂 )