CARM alert – grace in action
I got an email from Matt Slick today. In addition to saying that I misrepresented him (he said I was claiming that he believes I am unsaved! I know he calls me a heretic, but I didn’t hear him say that I was an unsaved heretic) 🙂
Matt stated:
you ARE in error…and your helping the church adopt your error.
and…i have no intention of having you back on the radio.
He also offered to debate me on Paltalk which I would consider if I knew if there was a fair way to have such a debate without Matt turning the debate into an attack session or having him control the mike. At this point I don’t think it would be possible, but I am open if I could figure out what I am doing.
The reason for this post is to call attention to a very gracious response to Matt that I found a link to on Wade Burleson’s blog. It is from a fellow Christian who has a blog called Voyage Blog and his name is David McLaughlin. Today he wrote a post called Carm Watch Update. David’s original post on the second debate between Matt and myself is here. I want to call attention to this blog and these two posts because of David’s gracious response. Even while pointing out error and wrong attitudes, David manages to keep a gracious attitude and I think he should be commended for the spirit that he showed. I also greatly appreciate him defending his sister in Christ!
159 thoughts on “CARM alert – grace in action”
Thanks for the link, I posted a compliment there.
On the paltalk debate, have a mutually agreed upon moderator.
Regarding the debate format, I do not believe this is the best way to discuss the women in ministry issue, as I think teaching is the best method, but it is A method to discuss it, if one is willing to conform to the requirements of such a format.
There are some truths that are simple and some that are not as simple to explain. To claim that everything taught in the Bible is simple is a mistake, IMO, altho some make that claim.
Don,
Thanks for all your wisdom. I will keep the Paltalk debate under consideration only if that appears to be the wise decision through the help that I get from others. It would not be a good thing to do if Matt controls everything. Once I am prepared and we would have a mutually agreed upon moderator, something tells me that Matt would rescind. He already has rescinded twice on what he said he would do (allow my DVD to be promoted on his radio show and allow me to come back if I jump through his hoops) so I would expect that his word to debate me on Paltalk is about as good as his word on the other two things.
Thanks for the nice words Cheryl. I hear they are saying I violated CARM rules with my post because I personally attacked Matt. Oh well.
In preparation for the debate, I would suggest you re-listen to both radio programs and go thru all the forum discussions and see which questions Matt feels you have not answered. These will be the ones he will hit you with for sure.
You are well prepared on everything else. I’ll try to remember to listen and pray for you.
I went onto David’s bog site and noticed that he is getting ready to go into radio himself. From a link on his blog I found his radio blog where David has started the road to produce his own radio shows on bible teaching http://voyageradio.blogspot.com/
David is planning to teach the bible via free podcast first and then from there take his broadcasts (that he is professionally producing) to the air waves. This will be accomplished as donations come in that will allow him to buy air time and go on the radio. The equipment is costly and he is looking for the Lord’s help in getting the rest of the funds together to make his dream of radio a reality.
David’s attitude is gracious and kind and he is not like a lot of other radio show hosts who pride themselves in using cheap tricks to get a following by stirring up controversy. Honestly when Matt Slick has said that he prides himself in being obnoxious, I hear my self asking “What is that all about?” It just doesn’t seem to be the way that Jesus would do things. Jesus was never obnoxious. Strong, yes, but obnoxious – never!
So here we have David needing funds to do things the godly way. On the other side we have Matt fully funded (to this point at least) doing things on air the way an ego-filled secular radio host would do it. I am not trying to belittle Matt. He is the one who pats himself on the back for being the best looking, the smartest and the most obnoxious apologist since God created sliced bread. (Okay the last part about sliced bread I added myself to Matt’s claims. The rest of the comments I have heard from Matt throughout months of on and off listening to his radio show. I think I will be mostly “off” now since the obnoxious part has really gotten to me).
I think I would rather hear the bible and a defense of the faith from someone like David. Is there anybody out there who believes in gentleness and respect who would either be willing to help David out with the needed funds or else help him find some financial backing so he can finish the task that he has started? I think this is a good, godly project.
David,
Oh, puhleese! This reminds me of the story of a man who loves to throw stones. Problem is that he lives in a completely glass house! (And as one of my friends likes to say, we all have access to windex so we can see what he is doing in there!) We can see through these tactics for what they are. I haven’t been on Matt’s discussion board since yesterday afternoon because I just don’t have the time right now. But when I was on last I noticed that Matt does not answer questions. His mode of operation is to throw a stone and then when someone responds, he is very quick to claim that he has been hit. On Matt’s blog the claim is that on our radio discussion/debate, I initiated a personal attack on Matt right from the beginning and it was I who was condescending! Again, I think this is a cheap trick and someone who lives in a glass house (radio, internet) shouldn’t be doing this because it does not bring honor to Jesus. I think the actual recording of what went on speaks for itself and your words on Matt’s blog speak for themselves too. These tricks may fool some for a period of time but eventually we will all be able to see clearly.
Yeah, that’s typical. Some people think every disagreement is a personal attack.
If a Christian wants equal free speech in any given discussion of religions and philosophies, we are accused of “ramming your religion down our throats”. If you criticize government they call you unpatriotic. And if you prove that the Bible does not condemn women for preaching the truth to men, you are accused of the very faults your accusers commit and declared a heretic.
And these same accusers have the gall to condemn the Inquisition. (not that there was anything good about it, but that they have a double standard) Yes, Matt is the last person with any right to throw the personal attack stone. From what I’ve seen, he simply wants to have his cake and eat it too.
I learned not to waste time on such people; you can only beat a dead horse for so long. Most people only want to throw stones instead of actually considering that they might be wrong. No matter what the topic, it is extremely rare to see people actually deal with issues, logic, and documented evidence. And if we have this problem with people who speak the same language at the same time in history and the same culture, why in heaven’s name does anyone think the Bible should be read without considering all the layers of context?
It takes a mature adult to be unafraid of criticism or of having their beliefs challenged and examined. But any fool can spout off with impunity.
Amen Don ! Here in Southern Cal. we have several radio Bible teachers who are quite fond of spouting the maxim: “God says what He means and means what He says…” Well yeah, and what Christian is going to disagree with that statement? But what they’re really saying is that God is saying what they’re saying. I also get very nervous when I hear guys tell me what the “the plain truth of scripture” is. Aside from the essentials contained in the Nicene and Athanasian creeds, the Bible in many cases does not have a plain meaning.
I think the primary meaning of Scripture is how the original readers would have understood it. That is what I seek to do my best to recover in my studies.
http://graceinthetriad.blogspot.com/2007/10/egalitarian-evangelical-heretics-and.html
Pastor D,
Great article! That was the best soap box rant that I have read in a long time and I think we should all read the article from the link posted above. Good, good stuff!
Dusman,
I liked it.
I’m glad to help and encourage this sister in any way possible. It’s the absolute least I can do given the blessing she’s been to me.
technomom wrote: Some people think every disagreement is a personal attack.
Over on http://www.thatmom.wordpress.com, under the Visionary Daughters thread, this same topic just came up. (The latest “thatmom podcast” should post late tonight or tomorrow.) In June, I introduced the problems of patriarchy on a few internet forums and found that most people accused me of gossip and of personal criticism rather than doctrinal or praxy problems among the leadership in the so-called “Biblical Patriarchy” movement. Because I pointed out that a significant portion of these doctrines were not Biblical, I was accused of calling several ministers and para-church organization leaders “bad men.” I received several emails stating that I was attacking “godly men” but was offered no explanation of the ungodly aspects of their (mingled with Godly) doctrine or their ungodly behaviours. The most robust argument that I was given by one gentlemen was that one of these men “treated us marvelously.” I spoke to Don Veinot of Midwest Christian Outreach a few weeks ago who states that people accuse him of being “mean.” He agrees that this might be true, but asks if he’s also “wrong.”
In the age of the law of the politically correct, it seems that the church has also capitulated to this secular trend. The superficial aspects of relationships and communication override the substance. Oh, how postmodern! The medium is the message. It’s sad to see that men like Matt Slick (trained at a seminary that I hold in high esteem) and others in the Reformed faith have so strongly capitulated to this ideal. At least, this is what it looks like to me. This is a very difficult problem affecting apologetics that I was not prepared to confront. I feel sometimes as if I’m in gradeschool trying to reason with children who cry “na, na, na…”
So true, Under Much Grace. I think I wrote somewhere before about the fine balance between squelching all traces of personality and individuality on one hand, and losing all civility and Christian restraint on the other. (Oh yeah, it was This Article.)
I think the problem is not only a lack of personal application of scripture as opposed to other-application, but also a lack of discernment to know when and where to show fire and passion, and when and where to show compassion. It’s made more difficult by the PC mentality everywhere, because people cannot handle disagreement at all.
There was a time when people could really give each other a thrashing and still be friends. In the Bible we see Christians “vigorously refuting”, “contending earnestly” for the faith. We also see Paul being crude at times in his loathing of legalists and false teachers, even saying “let them be cursed!” This is properly directed and controlled passion, the kind that we should feel if a loved one is insulted.
Yet it is the passionate defense of truth and God’s very honor that is no longer tolerated. And quite hypocritically, these same PC promoters get very passionate against those who disagree with them. Somehow it’s okay for them to rage, but not anyone else. (reminding me of some earlier rants Here and Here).
I know some people think only cowards or hypocrites don’t allow comments on their writings, but personally I’m just tired of all those whiny babies and control freaks. And when you write about truth that’s the kid of crowd you draw. I figure if somebody is genuinely interested in conversation instead of a mud-slinging contest, they’ll click their mouse one extra time (oh, the inconvenience!) and send me an email.
And even if you find some reasonable people to talk to, they want it to be a debate instead of fellow believers coming together to resolve differences or at least try to understand that other people’s views have legitimacy too. And to think, here we are having such difficulty communicating among people of the same language and culture, yet we demand that the Bible be read only on the surface.
technomom wrote: “And even if you find some reasonable people to talk to, they want it to be a debate instead of fellow believers coming together to resolve differences or at least try to understand that other people’s views have legitimacy too. And to think, here we are having such difficulty communicating among people of the same language and culture, yet we demand that the Bible be read only on the surface.”
Thank you for this both passionate and well-reasoned response. As an idealist at heart (working hard to overcome cynicism), I’ve always assumed that fellow believers do want to come together to resolve intermural issues in a spirit of mutual respect for the Lord’s sake. It’s been a hard learning process realizing that if this was the norm at one time, it is certainly less true today.
I’m also recalled of James Sire in “The Worldview Next Door” in his discussion/comparison of the Christian Existentialist vs the Biblical Theist. The Biblical Theist, of course, is grounded in God’s Word; however, the Christian Existentialist is grounded in his own experience and circumstances. Because everything is contextual, all knowledge and truth is inextricably bound to the knower. It starts with the man and not with God. To bring criticism then threatens his experience and knowledge which is ultimately grounded in his own concept of self, making any criticism very personal. To bring criticism to a Biblical Theist, however, even if they are in error, does not induce the same kind of personal response. A desire to learn truth and be true to the standard makes clarification and new understanding (even of concepts that are foreign) is a welcomed venture and not a personal threat.
So, in observing these responses in those like Matt Slick, I suppose that any understanding that is not earnestly focused on God’s Word and faith in God’s guidance of His people into all truth will produce this type of defensiveness. We’re apparently now in an age where it is also acceptable to launch offensive tactics also. It’s certainly not any litmus test of someone’s doctrine, but it may indicate from whence one derives his confidence. (I hope my witness demonstrates that my confidence is rooted and grounded in the Lord and His Word, moreso with each passing day. I pray that for Matt Slick and all these others like him in the body. And Cheryl’s demonstrating a fine example, IMHO.)
Good points, UMG. You’re right, the postmodern Christian is turned inward through teachings like contemplative prayer and other mystical, self-centering worldviews. This does make sense of the criticism = personal attack mentality. Although in Matt’s case I don’t think it’s as much a matter of mysticism as it is old-fashioned Pride. And I’ve met many like him. They have their own “private interpretation” and then wrench that verse out of context to use it as a weapon against anyone having a different interpretation.
And I do see this hierarchy view as leading right into the prophesied global religious system, since individuals are being stripped of their worth and told to bow to the concept of only allowing synods and official committees to declare doctrine for the masses.
One needs to see where male-prefernce hierarchy leads, which is to more hierarchy with most men under some men and some men under one man who is not Jesus. I see the hierarchy of the church as flat, everyone is under Jesus. We can choose to be under someone else ONLY as they are under Jesus and ONLY for a Biblical reason, for example, to learn from them, etc.
Don, Well put. These are the very ideas Anne Hutchinson was put on trial by John Winthrop and declared heretic for. As Solomon observed so aptly, there’s nothing new under the sun. Fortunately, we live in a nation where religious persuasion is a matter of individual conscience and not subject to the dictates of a theocratic state.
Don said, “I see the hierarchy of the church as flat, everyone is under Jesus. We can choose to be under someone else ONLY as they are under Jesus and ONLY for a Biblical reason, for example, to learn from them, etc.”
That’s an excellent, nutshell summary of the biblical teaching on church leadership.
I am begining to feel like I am a member of a mutal admiration socieity, at least for our understandings. haha. I thank Cheryl for this website.
“I am begining to feel like I am a member of a mutal admiration socieity, at least for our understandings. haha.”
You have a great gift of being able to summarize accurately without losing important information. This is a helpful strength, especially when it comes to trying to explain difficult doctrinal concepts to a postmodern culture that thinks in 30 sec. sound bytes.
I am so grateful for this wisdom and encouragement that I’ve found here. I seem to be growing into a new level of “patience and meekness” in apologetics with a whole new group of people (those in my own faith!) that are so much more difficult to witness to than those in the secular world. This is something for which my previous training did not prepare me.
As far as the mutual appreciation, I would like to think that this is the proper role of the body of Christ. I’m blessed and proud to call you my brethren. This support here goes a long way towards healing the rejection I’ve encountered because of my gender and as a result of my “gadfly” nature.
Well, keep me honest, I can make mistakes or be too brief.
As Einstein said (or at least was reputed to have said) “Everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler.
Good thoughts everyone! I have been out of commission while I finished my PowerPoint presentation. In-laws come tomorrow and in a week and a half we will be in Pennsylvania so there was a time crunch to get everything done.
“These are the very ideas Anne Hutchinson was put on trial by John Winthrop and declared heretic for. ”
What years was this?
Guys,
I will be cooking Thanksgiving Turkey this weekend so I’ll be off line for awhile. (For those of you who don’t know, it is Canadian Thanksgiving this weekend). I have an important article coming online next week (hopefully I will get time to get it done early in the week). In the meantime, go ahead and keep dialogging and encourage one another. I appreciate each one of you who has joined this community of encouragement!!
🙂
Is T-day in October somewhere, perhaps Canada?
Where I live it is in late November, always on a Thursday.
Yes, Thanksgiving is this weekend here in Canada.
“Yes, Thanksgiving is this weekend here in Canada.”
I just knew there was something really weird about those Canadians . . .
Dusman,
Very cute! Hmmmm….just think about it this way. Canadians were created first. You guys are second. (Tee Hee)
“Canadians were created first. You guys are second. (Tee Hee)”/i>
I guess that’s supposed to mean that we “led in the transgression” huh? 🙂
Justa Berean, “Hutchinson was brought to trial in 1637 for the heresy of antinomianism, or asserting that inner grace was sufficient to achieve salvation and that church rules and ministers were unnecessary for that goal. She stood for three days before Winthrop and an array of other powerful men, explaining that her meetings were merely open discussions and that her beliefs accorded with Calvinism and Scripture. But she was found guilty of eighty-two offenses against the church and government, especially her claim to have a direct relationship with God. Banished, she and her children followed Roger Williams into Rhode Island. She later moved to Pelham Bay, New York, where she was killed in an Indian attack.”
(from p-67 of: The American Experiment A History of the United States by Steven M. Gillon and Cathy D. Matson)
Thank you Greg. Didn’t know those details. Horrible things we’ve done in the name of religion, the rules of which humans have created.
Sad thing that too much power always corrupts. I see that lead in sentences like the following are common on CARM by gender hierarchalists.
“you convinced me that you do injustice to the word of God. You also have convinced me that further error will follow.”
Instead of just discussing the subject at hand, those who fear must throw out attempts to malign the character of those they disagree with.
I think I understand why Matt get’s so mad at Cheryl, claiming she is verbose and confusing. He got angry with one of her answers on CARM (titled: this is perfect example) claiming it was long and confusing. Problem is that it was a short answer. Other problem is that he does not understand her answers. I don’t think he is used to laying foundations of reasoning and building on them. He’s more a one or two level kind of guy. He’s not a scholar. And from what I can tell he doesn’t want to or know how to dig.
That makes it difficult for one to reason with him. He really does need answers that are one step at a time. Matt has claimed himself to be something that he is not. Thus when we think he “should” know something because of his claims, we are mistaken because his claims are not clear. Thus, we cannot assume that he “should” know anything and start from a different perspective.
Make any sense?
justa berean,
I dont think its that. I think its that he has his mind up and cannot ever admit he might not be right.
David,
I think you are right. Matt knows how to understand complicated arguments from Atheists but he refuses to try to understand where I am coming from.
The fact is that he does not have answers to what I say so the only way to save face is to attack the person. The attack comes by saying that I am long-winded. I am not clear. I am attacking him. I have a condescending attitude. This is all a smoke screen. In fact I have been more than kind to him and complimented him on his ministry work. I have not attacked his person and I have stayed on topic. He takes a question on the passage in question (1 Timothy 2) about why he believes “a woman” to be “women” in the passage and he takes me for a tour of the bible instead of telling me from the passage in question. Then he accuses me of running in circles when it is I who stayed on topic in the context of the passage and he who went into federal headship and the role of women in marriage, etc.
It appears that his best defense is an attack. I will continue to ignore the attack and stay on topic. I suspect he will get upset with me and ban me from his discussion board. His rules say that he can do this for any reason at all with no recourse. This is the kind of “ruling” that Matt does and what he thinks is allowed to him because he is male.
Hey Sis Cheryl, Gonna be in the kitchen all weekend huh? So does this mean you’re gonna revert to your “proper role” in the Body of Christ? HA!
Okay, Greg you got me there! I should be in the kitchen right now, but these comments on this blog are so interesting!!!
Okay, back to work. Gotta get my elbows into the internal cavity of a dead bird. Yum!!!
Cheryl you said to David: “I think you are right. Matt knows how to understand complicated arguments from Atheists but he refuses to try to understand where I am coming from.”
OK now I’m trying to figure out who is just being kind – the one who thinks he doesn’t understand complicated reasoning or the one who says he can but doesn’t want to go there.
LOL 🙂 🙂
Dusman,
Yup!
Dear Cheryl
🙁
Are you quite certain the Lord has called you to engage this man in dialogue?
You’ve probably heard of Beth Moore.
In Believing God she says “Never argue with a Pharisee”
You know what is in a man’s heart comes out of his mouth (or off of his keyboard as the case may be)?
And, I have another bit from my own personal experience (after all the Bible says in Rev 12 that one will overcome the accuser of the brethren “by the blood of the Lamb and the word of your testimony” 8) ) At about the third session of marriage counseling (three years ago) the Christian counselor pointed out a phenomenon which he referred to as “deflection”. My present mentor refers to it as “projection”. It is when my husband takes his own sins and accuses me of them. Keep that in mind when Matt (or anyone else) is hurling darts at you. It really helps me immensely to feel sorry for my husband instead of being hurt by his remarks!
Here is a post from someone who calls themself oldschool on the CARM blog, I post it here as he does not know much about blogging and may not know of this site.
——————————————————–
Cheryl, if you read this, I hope you will agree to debate Matt on Pal Talk or wherever. A structured, moderated debate would serve you better than just having a discussion on the air. A debate will force both sides to bring their A game. It’s not about who wins and loses. It’s about expressing an idea and defending it against criticism. We the audience can decide who put forth a better argument.
I mean no disrespect, but, I found your arguments rather incoherent. They were laced with too much emotionalism and stories. I’m interested what the text of scripture says. I feel this issue shouldn’t be rocket science. However, when I heard your arguments defending women being pastors/elders, my head was dizzy keeping up with the mental gymnastics. This issue shouldn’t be hard to figure out. Doing a moderated debate will force you and Matt to stay on target. Also the cross examination will be a good way to see which side really knows what their talking about and which idea has the most merit.
On the flip side, I have to commend you for you courage in stepping up to the plate. It can be uncomfortable to have to defend your beliefs to somebody who is trained how to argue. Yet you stepped up to the plate twice. I ask you to have that same courage and conviction and be in a better position to defend your belief and to show in your opinion if the other side is wrong and why.
I read in another post you’re going to be busy for a little while. That’s fine. Maybe in a month or two would be better. In the mean time, I look forward to hearing a debate on “Is the office of Elder/Pastor just exclusive for called men only?”
You’ve already endured being with Matt twice on this issue. A formal debate would probably be easier in the long run.
Take care and God bless!
__________________
I have been crucified with Christ ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Gal. 2:20
I have to disagree with “oldschool” on several points.
One, debate is ALWAYS about appearances and debate skill, and NEVER about substance and reasoned exegesis. The game is to sway the audience, not with superior arguments, but with superior crowd manipulation. So only those who are trained in formal debate should even think about participating. I highly recommend a site called Ex-Atheist for more information.
Second, the words “incoherent”, “mental gymnastics”, “emotionalism”, “stories” etc. are the same biased judgments Matt threw around. Exactly who was being and doing those things is of course a matter of opinion. I think Matt was clearly the emotional one, the one doing the gymnastics, the one who was incoherent. And as we have been trying to explain, Matt’s “sound bite” hermeneutic is a coward’s way out of dealing with the depths of scripture. A surface-skimming might be okay for him, but not for me.
A formal debate between Matt and Cheryl would be like the fly agreeing to duke it out with a spider on the spider’s web. It’s his game. Cheryl’s “game” is more like a long clinical study. What the Bible teaches about the Assembly and how we all fit into the Body is not “rocket science”, but neither is it “Exegesis Lite”. What they call “stories” is simply careful thought, and they’re not used to that.
“One, debate is ALWAYS about appearances and debate skill, and NEVER about substance and reasoned exegesis. The game is to sway the audience, not with superior arguments, but with superior crowd manipulation. So only those who are trained in formal debate should even think about participating.”
As one who has participated in two, formally-moderated public debates, I have to agree with Teknomom.
Debates by their nature are time limited with rules of order. Due to the time limited nature, the side with the most “sound bites” has an advantage, want any political debate for examples. Another aspect with time limits is the less familiar position can simply need more time to present its case. Also, if one’s conclusions take a long process to arrive at, then a debate is very disadvantageous, a debate is not the place to present a long math proof, for example.
For all these reasons, a debate is far from the preferred format to the 1 Tim verses. IMO, the BEST format is for each to teach as much or as little as they wish on a subject. However, many people do not want to hear both sides.
I am laughling so hard I can hardly stand it. My post to Matt has had parts deleted because of “personal attacks.”
The funny part is that the part of the message they deleted were my quotes from MATT!
“The funny part is that the part of the message they deleted were my quotes from MATT!”
This is a great example of why I simply do not take the time to participate in such exchanges any longer. Many people who don’t want to listen to a different point of view are simply unable to be objective and considerate in the process of discussions like these.
post 46, Teknomom,
I completely agree. And that is precisely why Matt wants a “formal” debate. It’s not about finding truth or even agreement. It’s about him winning at his game and looking good.
Dear Cheryl,
Would it be too much trouble to make another blog entry where you just put YOUR posts from over there? I visited a couple times, but it is too distressing to me to wade through all the disrespect, mocking, and character assassination. But I want to think about what you are saying. I find it very insightful.
Thank you, sis.
Listen, I’m going to pray for you.
You are so calm and level headed.
The Bible says “you will know them by their fruits”
Your good fruit shows, Cheryl.
Bless you.
Hey all,
I have read what you all said and have taken it to heart. You have much wisdom in understanding and knowing about debates than I do. I would not proceed with this without help and for now I will not be considering a debate on PalTalk just because I do not have time to work on understanding the format or how the attacks will come. I do not respond to personal attacks because that is the way I learned from The Master. He did not answer when he was attacked.
Charis,
That is a really good idea and I am so glad you thought of asking me to put my responses here too instead of just at Matt’s discussion board. I struggle with having as time to really put into his board right now as my in-laws are still here. My mother-in-law is staying the week and Richard’s sister did not leave as their car broke down. I have no idea how long they will remain and I cannot be on the computer for long periods of time while my company is in my home. I should be able to get some time on line later today when they all go out for a bit.
Thanks again for a wonderful suggestion(s) as I do listen and pay attention to wisdom and suggestions from others.
Blessings!
Cheryl
David,
The editing on your posts concerns me a great deal. I am a lover of truth and when someone edits out their own words that you have quoted, it doesn’t sit right with me. This sounds very questionable and unreasonable and I wonder what he is afraid of. If one has the truth they shouldn’t fear having their “truth” challenged. Truth will stand the challenge. It is only “error” that runs and hides. That is very, very disappointing, but I guess many would say that it is typical of this kind of attitude. When one believes that they have the right to rule over others and force people to obey you or else, you have the makings of a dictator. Jesus said that those who lord it over others are following the way of the world.
Charis,
I really appreciate your kind words! All I want to do is honor Jesus and follow the example he set up for us. Unfortunately that leaves me on the short end as far as debates goes because I do not want to sling mud and attack another person’s character. I just want Jesus to shine through me in whatever I do. I fall short of being that wonderful example more than I would like to, but Jesus has helped me step aside and let the Holy Spirit bear the fruit that doesn’t originate with me. I give all the glory to Him!
Much love,
Cheryl
Cheryl,
Not slinging mud certainly does NOT leave you on the short end for those with discernment, even if they disagree with you.
Just finished reading where a young woman actually believes that only men are created in God’s image, and women are created in man’s image. She has to be pretty young since her basis is the English “man” and “him”. She completely does not understand that in English Bibles when the word “man” is used to translate the Hebrew “adham” it mean human, not male person. In the case of Genesis, it means humanity. How much easier and less confusing it would be for todays young people if modern translators dropped off the old English and used the modern terms. Even Gen. 5 would be more understandable if it properly read that God called them both “human”, instead of using the transliteration of adham. Their name was “Human”. The man’s name was Human. When God called out in the garden, He called “Human”. These things need to be properly translated.
It’s no wonder our young people are so confused.
Justa Berean, I’ve seen the same pattern here in Southern Cal. and with many older (chronological age) believers. In particular, those who are members of the mega-fellowships of Calvary Chapel. Although I have the utmost respect and admiration for Chuck Smith the founder of Calvary Chapel, I do not agree with his complementarian (no women in the leadership) stance. Recently while on the freeway here, I heard a CC-sponsored radio show in which the wife of a certain Calvary Chapel pastor said with all certainty that God has ordained a gender-based hierarchy from the beginning of creation. So here’s the thing. Many believers have no interest in doing there own homework so to speak, that is; investigating God’s word for themselves. They are content to sit at the feet of their leadership and have them do their thinking for them. What’s more, Calvary Chapel pastors will only use the King James translation or grudgingly the New King James when the Elizabethan idioms draw a blank slate from congregants. Bottom line here is that it takes work to become a Berean and most are just not up to it. One last word here, regardless of what English translation is used, gender-based hierarchy is simply not supported when God’s word in its entirety is used as a body of data. Our dear sister Cheryl has demonstrated that admirably.
Now Matt has a new set of questions. some sort of trap. Probably trying to see where he can really call you a heretic.
I usually walk away from those sort of things.
🙁
Where?
It’s on the same Carm Radio forum….. called ” to Cheryl some questions”. Seems like he’s searching for something else to fault you with. Theological points.
It is my opinion (for whatever it’s worth) that there is no way you are going to be able to satisfy him in these questions. I’ve been a deeply devoted and dedicated Christian, loving God with all my heart mind and soul, and I don’t doubt that if I tried to answer those questions that Matt could tear me apart and find a way to label me a heretic. It wouldn’t be the truth. But I don’t doubt that he is capable of twisting things to fit his plan. I firmly believe that he doesn’t care about your answers, but only what he can do with them.
He is laying in wait with a trap. It’s not that you don’t have solid satisfactory answers. It’s because he has a plan to turn and twist what you say. And he’s good at it.
Justa Berean,
Unfortunately, I too believe this. I am not about to get into a debate with him on Calvinism and until he can tell us all why he is asking these questions, then I will not be taken off topic.
Thanks for your concern, you are a friend to me by sharing your concern.
If it’s about Calvinism, I can guarantee it would get ugly. I’ve debated it many times, and even with the best of intentions it never ends well. And with Matt, I can guarantee you’d be charged at the very least with misunderstanding and/or misrepresenting the teachings of Calvinism.
I have a hunch it’s related to his failure to understand during the radio debate that you were not claiming there are innocent people (a point I’d argue, but beside the point right now). He may be wanting to use this once again to burn the straw man he set up, that is, to take that misunderstood statement as proof that your interpretation is wrong.
Teknomom,
Ah, yes, now it makes more sense. Well, I won’t let him take me down the garden path. I won’t be answering his off-the-subject questions because I am very focused.
It has been a difficult time for me as I have ended up with almost no time for ministry while I have company and I was awake until about 3 am last night. I can hardly wait to get back to normal and back to this blog. I feel very inadequate when I have to focus on something else for the time being because of lack of time and then I put any minutes I have available into Matt’s discussion board and not on my own. But God knows the one(s) that he has given me to help and for this short time, I will help whomever I can and I will be back as soon as I can.
If it’s about Calvinism, I can guarantee it would get ugly. I’ve debated it many times, and even with the best of intentions it never ends well. And with Matt, I can guarantee you’d be charged at the very least with misunderstanding and/or misrepresenting the teachings of Calvinism.
Even though theologically, I would be classified as a Calvinist, I agree with Teknomom. Most of these types of discussions are a real waste of time and generally end up creating more heat than light . . . especially given Matt’s history of being unkind and rude in his previous radio interactions with Cheryl. Matt strikes me as the kind of guy who comes off as “My interpretation of Scripture in the area of women in ministry is plain for any and all to see, and if you don’t agree with it, then by default, you’re a heretic.” I would imagine that sadly, he might take a similar tact in the area of the doctrines of grace. I truly hope I’m wrong.
In our church, we *joyfully* have members who are non-Calvinists and more importantly, our elders teach a two-parts series titled “How To Discuss Theology Like Incurable God-Lovers”. We encourage discussion in areas of disagreement for the purpose of sharpening and encouraging one another vs. killing the unity of the body of Christ through parading our pet doctrines, thereby creating disunity and factiousness (Titus 3:10-11). We love our fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord too much to separate from them and create disunity in the body because of our differing positions on secondary doctrinal issues.
If any of you are appalled at Matt’s behavior, rest assured, I am as well. I’d avoid him since he emits and air of factiousness. He will not be taught by Cheryl (or any other biblical egalitarian) and those who will not be taught, *cannot* be taught. So, for what it’s worth, I’d exhort you to avoid wasting your time arguing with someone who isn’t going to listen in the first place. Spend that time with your children, your church, and your family.
From Jesus lips to your screen, the key to understanding if a doctrine is from GOD is doing HIS will:
And I thought this- from my little collection of quotes- was apropos.
Loved your quote from “There Were Two Trees in the Garden”. Very discerning point here: “Christians, disciples of Jesus who He said would be recognized by their love, have demonstrated the uncanny ability to agree on 98% of their doctrines and separate from one another over the 2% on which they disagree.”
Cheryl,
Excellent job on answering Matts questions. Especially wise to answer with Scriptures. Short and succinct. 🙂
Now let’s see if he gets off the rabbits trail and back to the discussion. But I’m not holding my breath.
In the meantime, I do hope to see you get back to your regularly scheduled life. and give Matt a point here and there instead of so much of your time. You have so much to offer, I hate to see you sidetracked from your greatest contributions.
Many blessings to you. I look forward to God using you greatly now and in the future. God is going to use you to win new ground for the kingdom in believers lives. He will be using you to set more and more people free to serve God in joyous adoration.
Hallelujah! I’m raising my hands in praise to God for His unspeakable riches in Heavenly places.
Justa Berean,
Thank you for your encouragement! Yes, I feel that it is time to get back to my own blog and my own writings. I have put an amazing amount of time in on Matt’s blog. I got to bed this morning at 3 am and up again to make breakfast for my mother-in-law. She leaves Friday night.
I will be back shortly after that. Praise the Lord for the community here! I was getting tired of the snide remarks from those who call themselves Christians. The love of the brethren is not in them and that is so clear to see.
It concerns me that they show so little affection for the Christians they disagree with. There were some conventions put on by CBMW around five years or so ago, after which patriarchalists and gender hierarchalists became more free in their rude and accusatory language to their opponents. I believe there were some teaching then that also encouraged gender hierarchalists to be freer to call others heretics. It was a malice that slowly spread throughout the body.
And now the average Christian is infected with it. Very sad indeed.
Well, you take good care of your MIL. 🙂
Dear Cheryl,
This blog has been so quiet….
I spent a very very long time last night reading through some of the stuff over there. I figured out I could turn OFF the posters which were triiggering me, (except for that DianeS- gotta wonder how she justifies her position of “authority” over there with her apparent disdain for women having any).
Before I went over there, I spent some time in the archives of your blog here. (I still wish you would have cross posted all your comments from over there to here… If I had been thinking, I would have volunteered to collect them for you while I was reading them)
I am starting to GET IT! It is such an incredibly delightful affirming and uplifting paradox. Turns the hatefulness toward women inside out! Listen, if you have time, I wish you would give some thought to the entire chapter of Rev 12. And, the seed thing… The trees have seeds too- the “tree of life” and “the tree of knowledge … death”. FRUIT comes from TREES. What about JESUS as the “tree of life” and legalism as one of the manifestations of the “tree of knowledge… death”? I did an in depth word study of the Gal 5 fruit passage and found out that the works(fruit) of the flesh cover a lot of territory- where I- A CHRISTIAN- WAS LIVING!!! (I am a recovering legalist).
AND I wish you would give some thought to another idea which I have heard from several sources and I resonate with it in my own Christian life: I was saved but I was not born again. I had the DNA of Christ planted in me, I was reGENErated when I received HIM, but the rebirthing/the forming of Christ in me/the sanctification has been a process. Almost like a growing up process. But I consider that I have been a baby Christian, not growing, for an entire 25 years (and I went to seminary, served on the mission field in a muslim country, led bible studies, etc) but did not really STOP trusting that all the “authorities” knew better than me and start really listening to the Holy Spirit and digging into the Word for MYSELF until 3 years ago.
Another thing Rick Joyner points out in There Were Two Trees in the Garden (which resonated with me personally) is that Christians are more afraid of the devil’s power to deceive them(through “women” as the case may be :rolleyes:) than they trust in the Holy Spirit’s power to TEACH THEM. BTDT! As I found them, I collected verses which speak of God HIMSELF 8) teaching ME 8) : 1John 2:27; John 14:26; John 16:13; Eph 4:21; 1Cor 2:16
If any of Diane and Matt’s disciples read here, I would challenge you to PRAY and ask GOD what is the TRUTH!!! HE surely KNOWS!!!
Just to clarify (since I can’t edit my post) the Rev 12 meditation is DISTINCT from the seed and tree meditation. (I ran them together)
Charis,
If you’re interested, I have a personal commentary Here, and Revelation is Here.
You bring up a good point about the difference between babies and disciples, a difference the legalists never seem to grasp. Here are some thoughts I have about that:
Children and Disciples
Start Me Up!
The Greatest
In my understanding, the tree of knowledge OGAE did NOT have seed in it. God in Gen 1:29 said the humans could eat of every tree with seed in its fruit. Ergo, the TOKOGAE did not have seed in its fruit. Seed shows life.
That makes sense, Don!
Actually, Galations 5 is consistent with that because the word “fruit” is only used for what comes from the “spirit”. What comes from the flesh is referred to as “works of the flesh”.
Sorry my scholarship is so sloppy…
There are 17 greek words for the works of the flesh. The strongs definitions filled 3 pages of a word document, and when I thought about them, they are very thorough in what they cover.
I won’t put any of that on here as it is a tangent, only I think it is a telling “mirror” to look into when Jesus says that it is those who DO HIS WILL who will be able to understand truth/correct doctrine. (John 7:17)
I have to add that the revelation you have received, Cheryl, is so very refreshingly redemptive! And it gives a new definition to the whole “deflection phenomenon” (aka projection, blameshifting) which Jesus referred to as “the log in their own eye”.
If I posted there, I would suggest to Diane and all the other women to meditate upon and pray with Paul: Eph 1:17-23, 2:6. (I mean, I bet this passage uses most of the “authority” words IN the NT and look what it says!)
The way they interpret 1Tim 2:11-15 would invalidate the above, so their interpretation can’t be right.
I was thinking about this and had a lightbulb moment.
Some plants can propogate via their roots!
.And Heb 12:15 refers to a “root of bitterness” which “defiles many”
I have personal experience with a “root of bitterness”. It is probably the area where I have had to pray, repent, and fight spiritual warfare more than any other. One of the symptoms of it for me was quite a long term blindness to matters which are becoming clearer now. (Fundamentally, like Beth Moore says in Breaking Free, GOD IS NOT ABUSIVE!)
Another “root” verse to which I aspire:
“That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love ” Eph 3:17
I press on toward the goal…
PS. Sorry for the tangent Cheryl… fraid I talk too much on YOUR blog…
Charis,
I have copied a lot of what I wrote in Matt’s board and wanted to format it to put on my blog here for all to read. The problem I have had is that I have been so restricted with time. I have had little sleep in order to post late at night on Matt’s blog while my company slept so that I wasn’t ignoring them during the day. But having spent my energy and time over at Matt’s discussion board, there was no time left for this blog. My mother-in-law leaves this evening and then I will be back to writing and answering here. I still have some restricted time as we leave October 16th for a week on an out-of-country trip. When we get back I hope that my life gets back to normal. I love teaching and I love answering bible questions. Unfortunately this last few weeks there hasn’t been enough of me to go around.
I do think that eventually Matt will block me from his discussion board anyway since I ask him questions that he cannot answer nor can he afford to answer them. Anything that makes him look bad will certainly be blocked or perhaps he will just go back into the attack mode. It seems that an attack is better than answering questions (for him).
Well, back to my mother-in-law!
Much love,
Cheryl
Watching the conversation has caused me to realize how important it is that women stand up for the truth. When men and women stand together for God I believe God’s power has a wider, stronger and more balanced base from which to work.
Justa Berean,
I agree! The thing that amazes me the most is when it is the women who are the strongest opponents to women in ministry. I do not understand what gives especially when they become especially nasty in tone. Someone said that they act/react in jealousy because they have been held back themselves. I don’t know. All I know is that when I was a complementarian, I could never have spoken in a unkind way to other women who were only doing their best to follow God with all their heart. It seems to me to be a real shame to have women fighting other women to keep them quiet.
One thing I am thankful for is that so far I have been able to speak freely without being shut off the board. That time may come though. I also will have to stay away from the discussion board after tonight so I can get other work done (if I can – I tend to like defending every little point of their contradictions!)
I think there may be a bit of a double standard going on over there. I have noticed that some seem to not really add much to the discussion, except to be supportive of Matt and denigrating of those that do not agree with Matt. My guess is that if one responds in kind, one sinks to their level and would be (validly) banned for forum abuse, but they turn a blind eye to such things when the poster is “on their side.” in that they give them the benefit of the doubt, they mean well, etc.
There is an Aesop’s fable about a fox with its tail cut off (I think) who tries to get other foxes to cut off their tails so they are all on the same level of pain. I think it can be VERY shattering of one’s worldview when a woman speaks with Biblical authority, if one is told that this cannot happen.
Don,
I fully agree. I have wondered the same things as you have. If I had been disrespectful as some have, I would have been shown the door a long time ago. A mocking answer seems to be the only answer that they can give when they have nothing else to refute me. It is just so sad. This also answers why mocking and disrespect is the norm for these kinds of people. They believe that women are not allowed to teach with biblical authority and so automatically someone like me is a terrible sinner. This is how they treat sinners.
But scripture tells us otherwise. Brethren in Christ must be treated with love and respect and if they are in error, they are to be gently corrected with love. Fact is I feel no love from these people and it makes me wonder why. What is the true heart condition that shares no love with a brother/sister? I can’t help but be reminded of John’s words:
And it isn’t just disrespect. It’s gleeful derisive mocking right along with some misunderstanding and an occasional deliberate twisting of what is really said.
While there are only a few on that site that do that it is worse on some of the other very influential gender hierarchalist sites. I’ve been watching the email list started by CBMW’s first leaders. And there is a blog by CBMW’s earliest leaders that is also crazy nasty with false statements and ad hominens toward CBE, egalitarians and those who call themselves Christian feminists.
I don’t know quite what to make of it. And it seems to be escalating. Which makes it all the more important for Christians who believe in Biblical equality to NOT respond in kind, but to treat them with respectful discourse while making firm and pointed corrections. The corrections are just as important as showing them genuine Christian charity.
I’m very much enjoying watching you guys over there. Like I said I turned OFF several of the ones who are so disrespectful (I love that feature 🙂 ). Its so clear how some have a way of murdering with their words. Its why their marriages fail in numbers higher than the world! They speak forth death and curses. They don’t speak LIFE!
I have a suggestion for you Cheryl.
Can you post links to the articles on your blog which address your points? I especially think that the diagrams in your article about Eve really simplify what you are saying and make it easy to grasp. I found that revelation very redemptive.
Charis, I’ve heard figures like that too, about the failure rate in evangelical Christian marriages. And you’re right, a lot of it has to do with the power of the tongue whether for good or bad. And yes our sister Cheryl is very good at simplifying stuff that can be very difficult to get a grasp on otherwise. She does much by way of analogy that is done with advanced math expressions, ya gotta simplify before ya can do much with em’.
Hi Charis,
I am going to try to get to the questions/comments on my blog today. I don’t think I am allowed to link to my blog on Matt’s site. They have an abundance of rules that makes linking to blogs a no-no. If you disobey their rules they can kick you off and remove all of your posts. It would love to link to my blog but I know they wouldn’t have it. They won’t even let me mention the name of my DVD. I asked if I could and they said I could it was part of the discussion, but when I did, it got edited out.
If anyone goes on Matt’s discussion board, the trick to not getting confused is to change the view to “linear” so that the posts show up in date order. The default view is confusing so say the least. The current discussion is on the major called CARM radio and there are several active threads regarding women in ministry. It has been all that I can do to keep up with the discussion and it certainly has taken my time away from here on my own blog. At least so far I have been given the freedom to teach my view.
I was listening to Matt’s radio show from just a couple of days ago and he is still talking about me! Amazing! He is saying that the “Cheryl-ites” as he calls them as well as myself are slandering him on his own discussion board and saying all kinds of lies about him that he hates women, etc. I know I haven’t even had a chance to read all the posts, but I read nothing of the sort. In fact the discussions have been on the issues not on a person. Well, that is except for the Carmites (what Matt calls his own followers) and some of them are pretty nasty and like to mock women in ministry every chance they get.
So Matt says on his program that he is allowing me to stick around (on his discussion board) because he wants me to answer his theological questions. I don’t know what he is going to do now that I have answered his questions. I asked him four of my own questions but so far he hasn’t answered any of them. I will keep you all posted on what is happening and my thought is to post some of the discussion here on this blog. It just takes time and right now time is a premium. We leave on Tuesday for a week long ministry trip and there is much to be done before then. When I get back I should be much less restricted time-wise (I hope!)
So I will be back here later today to attend to some of the comments/questions and I will get to as much as I can.
Blessings!
Cheryl
Matt did not answer one of my questions. Don’t expect him to answer your questions.
Jas 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.
Under Much Grace,
You said:
The problem I see is when people pull on a person’s “security blanket” i.e. patriarchy, these people come out swinging and they will attack you with all kinds of false accusations and they will call you every name in the book. I have long pondered on why this is. Why would people who claim to know God and know his love, actually try to attack the person instead of what they consider to be false doctrine? I think it is because they do not have an answer to what we say. When someone is very much attached to their security blanket and then you pull on it and they don’t have an answer for what you are saying, they will come out swinging. But in my opinion, real mature believers will reason through the argument without an attack on the person not only because they really love the truth but also because they love their brother or sister in Christ. We are called to be truth lovers and we are called to love the brethren.
Charis asked:
I have been thinking about this and I think I know a way to put my article on another site so that I can link to it instead of my blog. The problem is getting time to do this before we leave on Tuesday for our week out of the country. If I get time to do this, I think it is a great suggestion. The pictures have helped a lot of people get an understanding to the issues of Genesis and Adam and Eve and I think that pictures speak better than 1,000 words do at times.
Thanks always for your great suggestions! I do take them to heart and ponder on how to do things better. I just need prayer to have more hours in the day!
Say Don … a friendly question. How long ago did you first read Bilzikians “Beyond Sex Roles”. Did you ever marry that woman who was the inspiration to read Bilzikians book. 🙂 🙂
I read “Beyond Sex Roles” about 6 years ago. It was a VERY bewildering experience as much of it simply did not click with me, but he did make a few points that I could not answer from my worldview, and I kept storing those up. Eventually I had a paradigm shift which solved all the puzzles I had stored up. But notice I needed to be faithful to store up puzzles I did not understand and, even more importantly, to continue to study something that might challenge my current worldview.
Many people read authors they already agree with, at least for the most part. They are, in effect, simply confirming their already established worldview. I find it is very important to try to know the worldview of any author I am reading.
P.S. I did marry that woman. She has taught me a lot and continues to do so.
That is enteresting how you describe your bewilderment and inability to give an answer. For many I do think that their inability to effectively and conclusively give an answer is important. God’s Truths weave a consistent thread throughout the whole of Scripture. When certain things seem to snag and mess with other facts of Scripture, it should alert us that we’ve got something wrong. This is an encouragement to keep talking about the Biblical truths of real equality in the body of Christ.
P.S. glad to hear that. 🙂
The Lord showed me that when someone sins against me, I can PRAY that LIFE will come out of it!
1JN 5:16 “If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. ”
I have sinned and I have seen God forgive me and bring life and redemption and use what the devil meant for evil to bring about good in MY heart. If HE can do that for me, then HE can do that for one who sins against me (and against my children).
I don’t think God wants us to give up on those who mock and murder with their words. Saul was a mocker and murderer. God didn’t give up on him. He saw the light on the Damascus road! 🙂
Charis,
Thank you for that encouraging word! I think it is what I need to hear today. It is so easy to fall into the trap of thinking that someone who is mocking you will never be open enough to hear the truth and then we just move on to others. But God is able to bring redemption whenever and to whomever he chooses.
I still haven’t forgotten all of your questions and your ideas. I spent time this morning putting one of my articles onto one of my web sites that I haven’t used for anything else but space for audio testimonies and I linked to that article onto Matt’s site and then figured out how to copy the article with the graphics so that those on Matt’s site can be blessed by it too without having to go off of his discussion board. I appreciated that you got my mind going on how I could do that. Unfortunately that again left my own blog without my attention. Ahhhh!!! We leave tomorrow for a week in Pennsylvania on a ministry trip and when I get back I will take the time to go through all of your questions. Your questions were just excellent but they do need work and thoughtful attention. I intend to provide that thoughtful attention no matter how long it takes me!
🙂
Much Christian love,
Cheryl
Greg Anderson # 58,
Not to get off topic but Calvary Chapels have a history of church abuse. Try doing some research on Christianity Today’s web site and in he search box just enter Calvary Chapel. Something to consider in light of the context of the current discussion.
I looked around at your links and found out where in PA you’ll be (because I’m only about an hour from the border of PA), but its too far to drop in on you 🙁
It really ministers to me that you remembered me (even though reading through your material over at CARM has clarified much)! AND I saw the thread with the graphics in it- that is perfect, even better than a link! Your thoughts on that topic struck me so redemptively…
When you get to thinking about my questions… Personally, I feel compelled to take 1Tim 2:11-15 as a parallel passage with 1Pet 3:1-6 and I take the “disobedient husband” in 1Pet there as inclusive of a disobedient “Christian”/pharisee husband. I just have a feeling that all you who want to look back at who the letter was written too aren’t getting how its supposed to give hope to ME who is really rather trapped with a rebellious Adam of my own. I have absolutely NO aspirations of doing any kind of Christian ministry. (And I spose I am really out of place on YOUR blog, except I have wondered about the passage so much and turned it over so many many times in my mind…) I aspire to survive a very difficult and painful marriage to an abusive patriarchal man and to be the WIFE and the MOTHER HE has called me to be. And GOD is helping me. In fact I consider HIM my husband who rules over me and I am relieved that my earthly husband’s delusions of “authority” are only delusions and “Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me’.”
Bless you on your ministry trip.
You are a really good teacher!
I have a group of friends who meet for bible study and we have discussed the women issue a TON and I am going to send them to your blog here and maybe get the DVD’s to study myself (they aren’t as geeky as I am about wanting to understand how the original languages read )
So, you see how the beast is “everyman” and “everyman” has a war within between Christ and antichrist?
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth (3670) that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth (3670) not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
One of the definitions for spirit/ pneuma is “the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one”
And the word translated “confesseth”
Its not a mere verbal assent as to Jesus identity as the Son of God. Even the demons gave mere verbal assent to that! It is coming into agreement with the Son in DEED.
Confess= 3670 homologeo: from homo- together; logeo-Word
And “in the flesh”. WHOSE flesh? I think it means MY flesh, your flesh, “everyman’s” flesh!
Here is another passage the Lord gave to me recently:
1JN 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. [19] They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
I discern the Lord telling me (for my marriage) that the antichrist spirit within each one of us us will GO OUT from among us because they do not belong to us! (The antichrist being that beastly sinful “disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul”)
Scripture is not dead words to a church 2000 years ago.
Its alive and active, sharper than any double edged sword.
Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
If any of the above post resonates with you, then think again about 1Tim 2:11-15 together with the entire chapter of Rev 12 and remember that until 100 years ago it was universally accepted that women are “more easily deceived”. Couldn’t Paul’s words in 1Tim 2:11-15 be prophetic: for TODAY?
Charis said,
We have to be careful to distinguish between what the scriptures mean in context, and what we can stretch them to mean. While it’s true we can apply scriptures to our daily lives, we have to stop short of coming to conclusions that may violate other scriptures. I know you mean well, but I see some danger in this idea of having an “antichrist spirit within each one of us”.
Of course, the meaning as John wrote what he did is that some claiming to be believers are not, and their leaving us proved it. But we have our own spirit, the essence of our being, and we have the Holy Spirit. There can be no other spirits within us, because “greater is the one who is in me than the one who is in the world”. No one else can “fill and govern the soul”.
What we do have battling within us is “corrupt flesh”, and we live in a corrupt world. And because we are “made in God’s image” we have free wills that want their own way. Only externally is there an antichrist spirit, which can oppress and tempt, but cannot govern us. Our command as believers is to “resist the devil” and walk closely with God, learning what pleases him and trusting him instead of ourselves.
There is much evil in the world because people choose it. I ache for the suffering of many like yourself, and have some sisters who have been in abusive marriages. Our responsibility as believers is to do everything we can to help the oppressed. But we must also remember that this life is a test of faith and character, and God will sometimes delay his deliverance for that reason. I pray you find relief soon.
Charis,
I now think I can understand where you are coming from. I have little time this morning as we ready to leave on our week trip, but I do want to tell you that I almost lost my daughter because of Rick Joyner’s books and I would warn you to be very careful. For most people I would just tell them to stay away from the books but for you I think you can learn from the things that I learned that saved my daughter. Rick Joyner’s main problem is that he gets these visions where the people in his visions (angels, Jesus, dead saints and OT saints) reinterpret scripture. The dead speak to him in his visions and actually contradict scripture. My daughter was deeply involved in this and so was a former youth pastor at our old church. He had prayed to have his own visions and like Rick Joyner he too found himself talking with the dead who spoke things that contradicted scripture. My daughter had come to the place where she believed that it was fine to talk to the dead because she was an avid reader of Rick Joyner’s books.
The problem that complicates the matter is that Rick Joyner advocates an internal war in the church between those who are “spiritual” (are they the “blues”?) and those who are not (my memory fails me but I think they are the “grays” or something like that) and anyone who doesn’t follow Rick Joyner and accept his interpretations is the enemy. The enemy has demons on them peeing and defecating on them. When one points out the errors of the visions of Rick Joyner, they are considered the enemy and are considered on Satan’s side. This is where we just about lost our daughter. The former youth pastor ended up leaving our old church and took much of the youth with him. He had written his own book about his own visions of talking with the dead and my daughter was editor of that book. It is a long story but a sad one where we fought hard to save the young people who had become followers of the youth pastor and his visions. We were successful with our daughter and she is safe but we lost most of our youth. As a result of our working with the elders of our church, (we had educated them concerning all the deviation from scripture that the dead people in our youth pastors visions were teaching) our church banned the youth pastor’s book from the church and that particular pastor ended up leaving the church because he refused to come under discipline because of the unscriptural nature of his book and he pretty much took the youth group with him. They went where they could all experience the supernatural without having to test these experiences by the word of God.
It was personally a very scary time for us but one that solidified in our hearts the warning about testing all things. It doesn’t matter where the teaching is coming from, we must test all things by God’s word or any of us can fall into deception.
I hope that you are still open to hear what I have to say and that I am not now considered the enemy. My job in the body of Christ is to (lovingly) point out error and to expose false doctrine and to lead people back into the solid foundation of truth found in God’s word. This is why I am always saying on Matt’s board that we need to test all things and to hold fast to what is good. Nothing (including tradition) is to be beyond that test. Tradition and experience can be good and wonderful things, but when they refuse to tested by scripture the alarm bells start going off in my head. I never want to be one who is led astray so I am constantly checking the inspired words and the inspired grammar so I can know that I have a solid foundation for my belief. It is this strong conviction and the amount of work that I put into understanding scripture in context that allows me to speak out with such confidence. I have done my homework and I am able to challenge faulty tradition without fear.
Respectfully and with much Christian love,
Cheryl
NO you are not “the enemy”!
Actually I only read a few chapters in the one book (and just this am I found a link to an online book- The Final Quest, which BTW has some of the quotes you referenced in your post). SO I am by no means a “Joynerite”- to coin a term. I was saved in 1979 through the “ministry” of a cult group (The Forever Family), so I have a long history of God using what was meant as a snare for good in my life.
But, I won’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. The whole Hal Lindsey, Late Great Planet Earth “theology” of Revelation never sat right with me. When I was an LCMS Lutheran in the 90’s I did an in depth study of Revelation (LCMS Lutherans are Amillenial). Personally I chose pan-millenial: “it’ll all pan out in the end”. But recently, when I was looking at Adam and Eve, 1Tim 2:11-15, I picked up the Bible and read from Rev and was confused by it and PRAYED that GOD would show me. Then I picked up Joyner’s book (which is borrowed and had been sitting around untouched for ages) and found the synthesis/the continuity which he presents of Adam and Eve and the trees with Revelation.
Nope, I don’t follow Joyner. I don’t follow Chip Ingram, James Dobson, Rick Warren, Rob Bell, or John MacArthur. I don’t follow Beth Moore. And I don’t follow Cheryl. Though I have listened to all of them and have learned from all of them. But, I want to follow Christ. And I am very open to learn. And I do trust you, Cheryl. I find you trustworthy. I doubt you are always right. But you are trustworthy.
You mentioned the difficulty with your daughter. My 12 yod seems quite taken by “Blue Like Jazz”. She is saying she is like Miller, doesn’t like the “religion” and wants a relationship. I am somewhat concerned that she isn’t mature enough to sort out the facts from the opinions and could get off track in a similar fashion… So I know what you mean.
But I also know what Rick Joyner means about the “religious spirit”. And I think I know what John- the apostle means about the “spirits of antichrist”.
2Ti 3:1 ¶ This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come 2 For men shall be…. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Pe 3:3 ¶ Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
What do you think of the FACT that somewhere @ 50% of “christian” men use porn?
Would they be walking in the Spirit of CHRIST?
or would that be the spirit of antichrist?
Is there HOPE for them?
I believe so! God gave me 1John 5:16 to pray…
The necromancy does sound odd and manifestly unbiblical. However, I have personally seen nothing of that in what I have read of Joyner’s. And frankly, having read a few pages of “The Final Quest” online, Joyner’s imagery strikes me as NO different than that in CS Lewis Chronicles of Narnia (I could post a quote where Lewis paints a word picture of sanctification as the Lion Aslan taking the dragon skin off from Edmund, but I won’t take the space on your blog for that- I really like that quote though 🙂 ) NOR is Joyner’s imagery much different than that in the book by Hannah Hurnard Hind’s Feet on High Places nor John Bunyan’s book Pilgrim’s Progress (didn’t he write that when he was in prison as a heretic?). If you took the writings of John Bunyan or CS Lewis and put the microscope on them and did exegesis on them as if they were scripture, SURE you could find all kinds of things that you could label “heresy”! I just don’t think they are intended to be authoritative like scripture! It doesn’t mean that we can’t glean some truth from them.
As for the church split, isn’t that the story of Christendom? It happened between Paul and Barnabas in Acts 15:39-40 “And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other” The church I attend NOW split off from a Wesleyan church because of an outpouring of the Holy Spirit with supernatural manifestations which was quenched by the then leadership of that Wesleyan church. My present church is under the covering of Elim Fellowship which accepts the supernatural. (The church split happened in the 80’s- long before we joined; but we joined out of a Wesleyan Church where I felt my spirit being quenched)
Charis,
That’s the issue with Joyner: his teachings are affecting how you interpret scripture. Lewis, Bunyan et al wrote stories, but how many people interpret scripture by them?
I often tell people that you can’t fall off the edge of a cliff if you never take that first step in the wrong direction. It seems harmless in itself, but it’s the beginning of the wrong path. So it is with using man to interpret scripture instead of using scripture to judge the writings of man.
I am told even by strangers that I have the gift of discernment. So when I tell you Joyner smells like a dragon to me, I’m not just saying it to spoil anyone’s party. Satan masquerades as an angel of light, so he’s not going to hold up a sign that says “Here I am, stay away!” but “Oh, don’t listen to those people, there’s no harm in this.”
I strongly recommend a discernment site called Lighthouse Trails Research. People send them hate mail for being negative or “trashing a good ministry”, but the truth is they care deeply about people and expose the ways Satan is destroying the churches. It’s a thankless job to be sure. But I would urge you to spend some time there and read up on Joyner and many other voices that combine to turn people away from the Anchor that is the written Word of God.
Here is a good intro to Joyner and the book, “There were two trees in the garden”. It is by a very respectable discernment ministry that includes Sandy Simpson and Mike Oppenheimer.
I have to say also that a red flag goes up whenever I hear people trash Hal Lindsey or use the phrase “left-behinders” in a derogatory way. I’ve studied scripture all my life and still strongly believe it teaches a literal fulfillment of Revelation and Daniel and Ezekiel’s prophecies. There is no contextual basis for treating them as allegories or stories about the general struggle between good and evil. No Bible commentators are perfect, but I’ll take Lindsey over Joyner in a heartbeat.
To hit closer to home, after your experiences at the CARM board,
do you think that malice, reviling, and slander come from the Spirit of Christ?
or antichrist?
I just wanted to mention that back when I prayed about the interpretation of the book of Revelation, the Lord led me to some wonderful online books here:
http://www.justworship.com/
I read the first two cover to cover (and even underlined!) and found them full of scripture and resonating with me entirely.
BTW, Technomom, I would venture to guess that 5 years as an LCMS Lutheran and my time as a missionary had much more impact on my view of Revelation than reading a few chapters written by Joyner. (Literally, I have not even read one of his books cover to cover.)
I am very into Graham Cooke right now. I can’t even pick out quotes from his books because I couldn’t STOP. They are THAT RICH!
Warfare Worship 🙂
Lighthouse Trails Research.
I went and had a look. Didn’t see anything about Joyner, but they are sure against the emerging church! And I am trending FOR it, not because reading some of the authors has convinced me…. because my own experience and my growing knowledge of God is convincing me… Its too hard to condense that into a short post… but
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”
Beth Moore in the opening DVD lesson of Beloved Disciple quotes John 5:37-40 and urges that we not fall into the trap of searching the scriptures without ever coming to Jesus for LIFE!
Christianity is a relationship, not a “religion”!
Beth Moore in Believing God makes a point of having ladies from all different denominations sit up on the stage to represent the unity of the body of Christ: Protestants, Catholics, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. I reference Beth Moore only because of her reputation and respectability as a good Baptist. I LOVE Beth Moore. And she “gets it”!!! I can tell!!!
Charis,
There is no conflict between the written Word and the Spirit; they both come from God and are to be respected as His Word. They are both necessary, to prevent gullibility on one hand and cold-heartedness on the other. The written Word is not subject to feelings and experiences which Satan can distort.
There is a growing trend toward exactly what you’re heading for, and it will destroy you. I’m telling you this in strong terms because I don’t want you to be sucked in.
Experience can never trump Truth. Jesus came to make us right with God, but he did so by fulfilling prophecy. He made sure there were eye-witnesses to his resurrection for a very good reason: evidence. Facts matter. God values truth above experience and character above comfort. We could know nothing without God telling us, and he uses both the spoken and the written Word.
I have both the Relationship and the Word. To throw the Word away in the face of experience is spiritual suicide. Please consider all this and at least give it a chance. Throw away the other books instead, and just listen to God by reading what he so plainly wrote.
I’m a bit put off by the fact that Matt had Diane rearranged their forum to make a folder for our discussions titled Evangelical Feminism. And had a nice introduction from Wayne Grudem that says in part…
“”I am concerned that evangelical feminism (or “egalitarianism”) is becoming the new path by which evangelicals are being drawn into theological liberalism. (By “theological liberalism” I mean a system of thinking that denies the complete truthfulness of the Bible as the Word of God and denies the unique and absolute authority of the Bible in our lives.)”
I consider that nasty. I’m not a feminist, nor a theological liberal. And I absolutely adhere to the Sacred Scriptures as the only source for eternal truth.
But now I have to post in that section if I wish to discuss these things with them. sigh!
Justa Berean, Look at the bright side. At least they don’t have the coercive power of the State to tell us how we can and cannot worship God. Their forbears (Winthrop, Mather, et. al.) must be turning over in their graves by now.
Good point Greg. I’m beginning to understand what it must have felt like to the African Americans when they were forbidden to eat in most restaurants and relegated to the back of the bus. But at least we CAN worship God from a sense of equality.
Man if I’d been alive in the “dark ages” I would’ve burned at the stake or hanged. Human nature hasn’t changed. Now they’re just hanging us with words.
Justa Berean, If you remember in the film: The Fellowship of the Ring , Galadriel’s opening narration (played by Cate Blanchett) tells us that power is what the race of men (anthropos) desire most of all. We are all infected with it to one degree or another. Fortunately though, most of us have learned to live and let live to where the infection does not become pathological.
“Theological liberalism” is the bogeyman of a believer that does not want to change. This is what the slaveholders accused the abolitionists of, in the terminology of the day. This is what the kings accused the Parlimentarians of being.
It is true that some abolitionists were not believers, as well as some Parlimentarians, but this is a big “so what!” as some slaveholders were not believers as well as some kings.
Beware the person who brings up a bogeyman into a discussion.
Dear Teknomom,
Your concern for me is really very sweet. Thank you.
You needn’t worry. I think it was on your blog where I read that Christ lovers should be having to disciplining themselves to stay AWAY from their immersion in HIS Word lest they have no time for other things. I identify! For my first 25 years as a Christian in 12 different denominations (my husband has had 11 jobs and we have lived in 6 states and two foreign countries) I became like unto the Revelation church of Ephesus. By golly, I persevered, but it was a legalistic dutiful relationship and I had lost the first LOVE! Now I have it, and there is no turning back. …
And while you are thinking what a teeter tottering heretic I must be…. I agree with Henry Cloud who wrote in Changes that Heal
Personally, in 25 years as a Christian, in 12 different denominations, I never found healing for being raised in a controlling abusive alcoholic home. That’s not the churches’ nor God’s “fault”, but I have learned that GOD does not live in a Baptist Box! 😉
Oh and to really seal your skepticism about me, I LOVED Captivating by the Eldredge’s, and it was in Sacred Romance by Curtis and Eldredge that I first discovered that anyone else besides ME knew about the kind of INTIMACY I HAVE with Christ. (I really wondered about my own sanity- I can feel it so much…)
So, don’t worry about me, Teknomom.
Charis,
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant in my blog about discipline and balance. The idea is not that we can get too much of the Word, but that we should have that kind of attitude towards it that we crave the Word like we crave other things. I really don’t believe or teach that it is possible to study the Word too much. Sorry for the confusion.
Also, to compare being immersed in the Word with a legalistic, controlling congregation is inaccurate at best. I’m talking about self-control and self-discipline. Being a student of the Word is not about controlling other people but about spending every possible minute reading the “love letter from God”. The Spirit who indwells us is the same Spirit that inspired the Word; it’s all from God. But the written Word is not changeable like our emotions, or potentially misleading like our experiences.
What knowing the Bible will do is keep you from being fooled. Measure everything else by what it says, not the other way around as you seem to be doing now. That’s what I’m trying to say. The evidence of the Resurrection is the foundation. Then comes the understanding of who Jesus is and what he did, and then acceptance. The relationship follows from there, and grows as you learn more about God through his Word.
Charis, if the relationship you have is not coming from the Bible but from others who have contradicted it, I have to seriously question the nature of that relationship. “What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?” (2 Cor. 6:15) The writings of people who contradict the Bible are not the place to find truths about God. The fault is not with the Bible, but with those who have improperly taught it or failed to practice it. Please don’t blame the written World for the way it has been misused.
When you put other writings above God’s Word, does it not grieve him? Does it not put up a wall between you and him? Also, why is it that you pay more attention to the written words of people than those of God? Why are their written words better? Please ask yourself why God’s written words are not as good as people’s written words.
It would be sinful for me to stand silently and watch anyone skip happily toward the edge of a cliff. I had to warn you, because I care and because I live to honor God. I won’t bother you about it any more, but please think about it.
PS. Can I be concerned for you, Teknomom? Do you have an astrological sign and a Zodiac year listed in one of your blog profiles? I spent a lot of time on spiritual warfare on behalf of my husband (and children) breaking strongholds and generational curses which have come from occultic dabbling in my husband’s background. It wasn’t even a BIG occultic involvement, but it only takes a little crack in the door… “sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you”
One can know the Bible and not be a Christian, some atheists know the Bible better than most believers, the better to try to have them not believe it.
The key is having a relationship with God. But the question is how does one know that they are not deceived about what God wants? This is where the Bible comes in. However, tradition can negate the Bible, so that what it actually teaches can be misunderstood. We can try to use the Bible to justify sin. We can take some text out of context and misinterpret it and not even guess we are doing this.
So what can be done? We are to act in faith based on our current understanding, always being willing to learn more and change if necessary. (I have changed my understanding on some things after study.) And trust God to guide us into all truth.
Charis, surely you know that blog profiles aren’t always in the blogger’s control. Blogger and Myspace put an astrological sign on your profile whether you want it or not, simply because you enter your birthdate. I only have two blogs at present, my home website (which has no astrological stuff in the profile) and Blogger. The Blogger one is only there because I am a contributor to someone else’s blog. You’ll notice also that many other solid believers in Blogger have astrological signs in them, but I don’t think for a moment that they want them there, any more than I would. Hope that clears up any misunderstandings.
PS: Are you quoting from the written Word, Charis? Why? (That particular verse is another one for you, too. 😉 )
That was enlightening Greg and Don.
Don you wrote:
““Theological liberalism” is the bogeyman of a believer that does not want to change. This is what the slaveholders accused the abolitionists of, in the terminology of the day. This is what the kings accused the Parlimentarians of being…..
“Beware the person who brings up a bogeyman into a discussion.”
Didn’t know the slaveholders used that terminology. Really fits since the Baptists were the primary force in keeping slavery and are now the primary force in keeping male dominance and male authority the primary theme of churchianity. Only now they are patriarchal, complementarian Baptists.
And I would say that the bogeyman was brought into the CARM discussion by their new category of the discussions. Hmmmm!
OK. I am new to looking at blogs. I was a regular at http://www.familylife.com/community/forums/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi and that was enough. Left there recently. I did check several other profiles from that blog and they didn’t have Zodiac signs attached to their profiles. I’m sorry for assuming that you had chosen to allow that. (BTW, I had noticed that some time ago. I didn’t go digging for it today.)
Anyway, I dislike taking Cheryl’s blog off topic. I feel disrespectful doing so, so I’m not going to add more off topic posts.
As for y’all being called “feminists” take it as a badge of honor.
“Christian” was coined to be derogatory.
For your information:
Excellent blog here about the complementarian and egalitarian dialogue.
http://complegalitarian.blogspot.com/
Charis wrote:
“As for y’all being called “feminists” take it as a badge of honor.
“Christian” was coined to be derogatory.”
I vaguely remember hearing that. Do you have any more info?
Perhaps the term “theological liberalism” had not yet been invented, but many of the arguments use the EXACT same wording, except replace negro/slave with woman/wife. It is really quite illuminating. The slave holders even pointed out that Eph 5-6 was one teaching unit and that if you “changed the plain meaning” of the verses on slaves, then next thing would be to “change the plain meaning” of the verses on wives. The unstated subtext was “Did the abolitionists really want uppity wives?’
Here’s the thread where I did my own thinking about 1Tim 2:11-15
http://www.familylife.com/community/forums/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=004303#000000
(You’ll have to fill me in about how you get your links so nicely formatted, Teknomom)
It’s hard to show how to do html when the post will interpret the code instead of showing it to you, but I’ll try.
The Part You Want To Show
If that didn’t work, then replace the brackets [] with less-than/greater-than in the text below:
[a href=”http://www.the_website_url.com”]The Part You Want To Show[/a]
Don, that is absolutely riviting. Do you have a couple favorite books on the topic where this relationship is shown?
testing…
testing again…
The Comp Egal website
I am reading some of the books about the 1850s defense of slavery in the south. Of course, I am also reading about 50 other books also. Amazon has some, now that you know they exist. Which one is best for you depends on many factors, some are heavier than others.
I rarely post but, I wanted to let everyone know that I keep up with the discussion at the carm website as well as here. It is disturbing to me as I watch the discussion at carm digress ( i would like to say progress.) Don and Exegetist present thier replies with a logic and reason that seems to escape the regular posters and moderators at carm. They do not seem to want to dialogue and discuss where egalitarians and complimentarians differ but insist on a stiffnecked stance of resistance to the information that is presented to them by eagalitarian believers (by the way you guys are doing a great job there.) Diane and Simple Theist replies to Don and Exegetist seem to be based squarely on thier emotional stance and what they have been taught by others concerning women in leadership with a few out of context scriptures thrown in for good measure. Both of these women, Diane/Simple Theist say that they have studied this issue and are confidant of thier beliefs but I don’t see this deep knowledge/wisdom in thier responses. They only respond to questions with scriptures taken out of context, along with thier personal beliefs, followed sometimes by a series of question marks or exclamation marks that sometimes appears somewhat childish and immature to me (i don’t know if they realize that that is the impression that they are giving some.) The fact that they have labeled the discussion forum as “Evangelical Feminism” was strategic in nature, all of us here know that. We also know that complimentarians define feminism only in a negative context and therefore consider it to be against Gods ordained order. The goal for the regulars at carm is to dominate the discussion and to (publicaly) reject factual information (not discuss it) given by egalitarians.
One of the last posts I read reffered to the egalitarian poster as an amazoness with a loin cloth and spear…………now how does that help us understand one another?
I affirm one more time that you are doing a great job esp. in Cheryl’s absence.
Terri, who posted the bit about ” an amazoness with a loin cloth and spear…”. Which thread? I didn’t see that. It’s really difficult to find stuff on that forum. I don’t like the linear because then I cannot tell who is being responded to. And the treaded is just so long. 🙁
Thanks for the compliments. I am still learning how to be respectful in the face of disrespect. I do find it amazing that believers can treat other believers with such disrespect. I am willing to put up with it for 2 reasons:
1. The disrespect shown egalitarians is NOTHING compared to what some martyrs of the faith went thru.
2. I have hopes that God can use me in some small way to let some people doubt they are right and become more egalitarian. That is what God did with me, he treated me gentle when I was blind.
The main problem with the posters dedicated to carm is that they teach authority as domination whereas, egalitarians view authority among believers as a partnership between equals. To hierarchalists theological truth is to be found through hierarchial ordering instead of interdependance and inclusion among the brothers and sisters. The exclusion of women from leadership/gifts as stated on the carm discussion boards is said to be divinely sanctioned by God so, who do we think we are to allow something that God forbids. They would lead us to believe that the submission asked of the wife negates or nullifies her authority. Therefore, not only must she be obedient to her husband but she must take a back seat when it comes to spiritual gifts, because of this lack of authority. They have indoctrinated women into believeing that having men/husbands reign over them is better than having Jesus? Women are asked to accept this as natural, normal and divinely sanctioned by God…………..
The women over at carm have taken the bait of patriarchy and swallowed it whole and now they are hooked. They will have to overlook and turn a blind eye to the inconsistancies in complimentarians interpretations of scriptures when they are compared to other texts dealing with the same issues. It takes alot of juggling and acrobatics with scripture to hold on to thier cherished “chain of command” doctrine. But complimentarians feel that all this division in earthly roles and spiritual roles between the sexes is necessary to maintain order………….ca’nt you just see the devil laughing!
To work for the Lord we can be
adders and multipilers but never subtractors and dividers.
I think it is easy to see what they are doing.
Oh yeah, the devil is laughing. That word “enmity” is such an understatement! But, as I like to remind the hierarchicalists (why isn’t that word in the dictionary yet?), “the first will be last, and the last will be first”. And there’s also “Whoever wants to be greatest must be the least”, and “even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve”. The comps must have those verses torn out of their Bibles.
The women I have met in my PCA church who are strongly complimentarian….ahh, thats all they know and have been taught. I suspect if you have aspirations for ministry (whatever that is -childrens church and women’s ministry and limited missions) and you want cudos ,recognition, and strokes from leadership you better stick with the program. Certainly if you recieve a salary from same, write books, post blogs, married to said pastor etc how can you do different? Unless of course your theology changes and ohh the drama that would cause. Most don’t have the courage unless it is forced upon them or some crisis occurs to get their attention. Their just being submissive and obedient as they are told and know to do.
It’s going to take a number of major players in these camps to change their position and the rest will follow like the sheep that we are, but don’t expect those who have been discipled by patriarchs to do it.
Paul reasoned with people about the scriptures. Keep up the good work with this site. There is alot of group think going on in complimentarian circles as well.
Donna,
Thank you for your encouragement! Yes, courage is needed and also a strong reasoning ability from the scriptures, but our attitude too needs to be with love and respect. I have been amazed at the attitude of the complementarians who go on line to dispute the women’s issue. Their lack of love and patience with brothers and sisters in Christ who disagree with them over this one secondary issue is telling. My goal is to be transparent so that Jesus can be fully seen in me. I know that love is what reaches me and if I was the one who was wrong, I would want a loving, kind and patient Christian to help me see my own blind spots. Those who argue without love, without patience and without kindness do not show the very essentials of the faith. This is the essential for Christians:
For everyone else online here on my blog….I am back after more than a week away on a ministry trip. I am tired and still jet-lagged but I do look forward to carving out some time to post back on my own blog. It looks like all of you fine folks have been communicating with each other quite nicely while I was gone. I am grateful that you have come to this space to share your thoughts with me and all of the others here who love Jesus and who desire to see women empowered to minister with their God-given gifts in the entire body of Christ.
Blessings!
Cheryl
John 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Cheryl,
Of course this verse clearly demonstrates that God only intends for men to be able to discern who are His disciples. It is the plain reading of scripture that MEN will know.
😉
David
David,
Your witt has me laughing out loud so early this morning! Thanks, my friend! I needed to see this verse that way to get a real smile!
Terri,
Regarding your comment #132, thank you for keeping up on the CARM discussion board and your comments here. I fully agree with you regarding your observations. I also really appreciate the patient attitude that comes across from the egalitarians on Matt’s discussion board especially those who post here too! The way I figure it, this is the way that will plant seeds and change people for the good. It isn’t sometimes what you say but how you say it. The barbs that fly from the complementarian posters would cause me to pause and consider the source if I was a silent watcher on Matt’s discussion board. The lack of love speaks louder than their arguments. I really don’t understand how they think they can influence others for the good without a spirit of compassion and love. I know that I for one need kindness to get past any of my blind spots. I learn from those who are patient and kind and God’s way is always the way of the fruit of the Spirit. Those who refuse to show this fruit in their discussions seem to me to be just a clanging bell that will be ignored.
Charis,
I appreciate all the kind words that you have said and the fact that you have agreed this blog is not about following a person or a personality but about following our Lord Jesus! I will probably email you personally sometime this week because I want to respond to some precious things that you have said that I read but now am having problems finding the posts after being gone for over a week. Sheesh, even I can get overwhelmed in my own blog comments!
“Emerging Church”…..WARNING WARNING WARNING!!!!!!!!!
This movement is deadly, It’s a bridge back to Rome! All the religions of the world will go into a “One World Order” and Anti-Christ will be right there to rule it with the False Prophet! It will all “appear” Christian to the world but it will be a lie…..truth mixed with lies=Falsehood/Poison!We can see this happening now and after the Rapture it will be worse because then Anti-Christ comes on the scene!
I have no problem that women are teaching truth however we need to stay out of movements that are going down the wide road no matter how friendly they “appear” to be. Don’t put nothing pass the Devil, that’s just like him, get a movement going, where everyone can be accepted etc…”The Emerging Church”mix alot of truth with some Lies etc etc etc. However The Emerging Church/Emergant Church (Same Thing) is a false movement. They want peace (now) but without Christ, They think man will do this. This movement is into newage/pagan practices under/using Christian Lingo!
The “Emerging Church” is a tower of Babel. When we first read of Babel in Genesis 11, we see that The LORD God scattered them (The People) abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
But now we see our generation of people going back to Babel (so to speak) to finish where those wicked people left off! Only this time they will finish but God will not scatter them like before but Destory Them and There Tower (One World Religon”)!
Your my Sisters in Christ and I must warn you all to stay away from that movement no matter how friendly it may be to women because that movement is false and that would reck everything that women in Christ are contending for, which is…..The Faith/Bibical Equality/Jesus!
Under Stand the Times ministries By Rogar Oakland exposes this movement. Test Everything!!! Here is his website: http://www.understandthetimes.org/
Cheryl,
I know you know this but it is no secret that reformed/ calvanists “the frozen chosen” lean towards arrogance. It is part of their church culture . They are very sure of themselves, and generally highly educated. They practically worship the church fathers though and they are not a charismatic people experientially. So they DO have blind spots.
(Sorry to be so blunt.)
I know you know this but it is no secret that reformed/ calvanists “the frozen chosen” lean towards arrogance. It is part of their church culture . They are very sure of themselves, and generally highly educated. They practically worship the church fathers though and they are not a charismatic people experientially. So they DO have blind spots.
I speak here as one who holds to the doctrines of grace yet abhor the arrogance you speak of. Our precious church decries the prideful arrogance displayed in all parts of the Christ’s church, not just those in the Reformed camp. A cold, dead orthodoxy is no one’s friend, and yes, it is sad that those often who are the most intellectual within Christ’s church often display a rude arrogance and pride. However, there are many evangelical scholars who hold to the doctrines of grace and/or are in the Reformed camp yet are humble, loving people. Many of these folks have also done much for the work of removing heirarchicalism in the churches by promoting the idea that people should function according to their giftedness versus their gender. Dr. Bob Wright, Dr. Doug and Rebecca Groothius, and Dr. Jon Zens would be a few names of mention. These are lovely people, and they exude humility yet maintain intellectual rigor. It is easy to broadbrush people who are of the same conviction in one area because of their convictions and subsequent negative behavior in another. That’s why we must remember to carefully avoid poisoning the well against the whole group just because one bad apple is located therein. Thanks and much love!
Donna,
I too had wondered why there was such a connection between Calvinism and hierarchical view of women and although there is still a great stronghold in this camp who hold women back, I have seen a wonderful breath of fresh air amongst Calvinists that fight this trend. Dusman mentioned a few of them who are highly educated and I will add that I have in my favorites several pastors who I highly respect and who also are Calvinists. Pastor Bob DeWaay for example although not a five point Calvinist is one of the finest examples of a godly Christian that I have found. His verse by verse teaching through the bible and his strong stand against those who compromise the gospel has been very helpful to me. He also teaches with much grace and he is willing to join himself with anyone who is a true Christian whether they are Calvinist or not. That is true Christian unity. I also have been touched by the humility, love and accepted by Dusman. As he said, he is also a Calvinist but not of the kind that separates themselves from the rest of the Christian church. I have seen much grace in his writings and I am proud to call him my brother in Christ. If all Calvinists would be like these two men, I don’t think we would have a problem in the Church such as what the church has suffered from in what has been a very divisive issue in the past.
Donna,
One last thing, I do agree that Matt’s arrogance is where the problem is. However Matt is not one of the anti-charismatics in the Calvinist camp. Believe it or not he believes that the gifts of the spirit are still for today. Trouble is, he doesn’t believe that women’s gifts when used for the benefit of men are in the same category of men’s gifts. Women can teach the bible but they cannot do it with authority as 1 Peter 4:10, 11 say. It is a two-tiered system where women’s gifts can be used but they are inferior gifts in the eyes of men.
Ok thanks for clarification. I have been a christian for 3 decades now but only in PCA for 6 years.
I remember many years ago hearing a pastor of mine say the following and I thought it was pretty good.
“Whoever has the greater insight into any situation has the greater responsibility to walk in love.”
We know God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Being humble enough to be possibly wrong is what it takes. If resistance is that strong it is proably fear based.. Fear of looseing control. I don’t suspect its because of the love of the truth. There is something else going on under the surface. I think it was Watchman Nee who stated that a man who has to tell others he’s in authority does not have authority. Its all heart stuff and how one gets into positions. Women have to die to self just the same as men and study to show themself approved. And when God himself supports people, in this case woma/en,resisting them… be careful you are not fighting what God is doing.
Pace yourself Cheryl. Stay rested and stay balanced in other areas of your life too. You have an awesome family. Sounds cold up there. I hope you ski!!!
Donna,
I loved this comment:
What a responsibility we have. Thank your for your encouragement to stay balanced. Oh boy, that one is hard. I have so many responsibilities and directions to go in. I do need to take time to rest and I find that hard to do. May God indeed help me to be balanced!
QUOTE:Didn’t know the slaveholders used that terminology. Really fits since the Baptists were the primary force in keeping slavery and are now the primary force in keeping male dominance and male authority the primary theme of churchianity. Only now they are patriarchal, complementarian Baptists.
And I would say that the bogeyman was brought into the CARM discussion by their new category of the discussions. Hmmmm!:END QUOTE
I agree with the comment above from “JustaBerean”. It was the southern “Christians” who made the bible say something it didn’t…..enslaving people because there skin tone was darker!!!!! That was one issue and now we have this issue…Women! I can see that history does repeat itself in different ways/issues. Trying to show once again that the Bible sets women as well as men FREE. When will the otherside see the word FREE and believe it!!!!!!!!
Luke 4:18
” THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
John 8:30-32 (New American Standard Bible)
30As He spoke these things, (A)many came to believe in Him.
The Truth Will Make You Free
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “(B)If you continue in My word, then you are truly (C)disciples of Mine;
32and (D)you will know the truth, and (E)the truth will make you free.”
Now the oppossing side in more words or less is saying that men are more free then women?!
I’m sticking with Jesus and HIS FREEDOM: Luke 4:12, John8:30-32
(Smiling). The Son Set Us ALL FREE!
Michael,
Thanks for your thoughts. It is a sad state of affairs that the church has been responsible in holding people back from their full equality in the body of Christ. I believe that one day we will look back at the women’s issue and see the hierarchical movement as an embarrassing part of our history. May the Lord grant that day to come soon so that our dear sisters in Christ will be free to teach us all with the gifts that Jesus has given them!
Let me say again here, that the Bible gives us an easy way to test these things. Jesus said that by their fruits you shall know them. If a woman is in ministry and it is Godly, with Godly fruit and Biblically sound doctrine on the essentials, then is she not Biblically proven to be acting in The LORD’s will? If not then…why does the fruit test not apply here?
Why are there women prophets, priests, Judges and Queens in the Bible that God raises up, does nto condemn, speak against nor does He set a man up in the place of? Quite simply, you have to leap through all sorts of hoops to try and prove that women shouldn’t be in ministry.
I still believe that most men with this issue are trying too hard to maintain what they see as pure scripture. Their aim is not to allow culture shifts to alter the Word of God, a noble aim! But, feminism is not the same thing as a woman called to ministry. Not at all. Ministry is serving, it is getting down on your knees to scrub the ground under the feet of everybody else, it is if anything, historically better SUITED to a woman’s role! When you tip the whole thing on it’s head, suddenly the pride aspect is exposed. Why are some men (and even some women) afraid of having a woman ‘lord it over them’? Why do they see church leadership in this way, when the Bible quite clearly teaches that leadership is not about being first, but being last?
I think once we understand how Jesus viewed His own role in ministry (that He could only do what he saw The Father doing, and that He came to serve and be last), we see why there is no Biblical or cultural reason for a woman not to serve in this way.
Amen!!
Hey Sheryl,
I think the Reason Matt Slick Said you were in error, and that you are damaging the church is because it is TRUE!
It is People like you who take your presuppositions and force them into the text. The Truth about Women in Ministry is that God will Judge Them, and They will not Stand the test of His Word.
I pray that you ernestly Retract your HERETICAL teaching because you will receive Judgment for What you Teach ( James 3:1)
Neolights
Neolights,
Perhaps you could share with me what presupposition I am forcing into the text? Have you taken the time to understand what my position is or are you attacking a sister in Christ without any knowledge about what you are talking about?
Neolights,
I went to your blog and I saw that you said this about an article that you did on women in ministry:
Interesting. Brother, it appears that you are already aware that someone who calls other Christians names and one who gives out accusations is merely practicing a tactic reserved for those who have no intelligible argument to rebut with. Amen, it is as you say. That being said, please do not practice this kind of tactic here. On this blog we love intelligent arguments and respectful attitudes.
Hey Neolights,
You sound kinda freaky, especially with that poor use of english you’re using. To be honest I found outbursts from people like you to be those in need of LOVE in their heart. Only someone with a VERY warped view of the scriptures would declare that a woman would be judged for teaching. For a start, there were female leaderships figures through the Bible, in both the old and the new testament. The reason we aren’t told about more than we are is because of due space, culture of the day and hey – the guys were’nt bad! 🙂 They did a sterling job.
You seem to fear women. Why is that, when God speaking through a child/man/woman is still the same God who made the universe? I have seen children as young as seven healing the sick in the name of Jesus. I suppose you think that’s wrong also?
By their fruits, FRUITS not rhetoric, shall ye know them. My Jesus doesn’t care if I am female or male, He cares if I know Him and if I speak with His voice or my own agenda.
If I have not love, I am a clanging noise. Think about that, and then speak only in love. And yes, correct love is still LOVE. Not hatred/sexism.
Kim,
You are exactly right! The truth needs to be spoken with love. I was just reading last night in Jeremiah and he said that he had spoken to God on behalf of the Jews. It was the same Jews who hated Jeremiah and tried to kill him and wouldn’t listen to Jeremiah. Jeremiah acted with love towards the Jews and gave them the messages from God. It wasn’t until all avenues had been closed and the Jews stopped their ears from hearing and set their hearts towards only doing evil towards Jeremiah himself after having the truth preached to them, did Jeremiah ask God to give the Jews what they deserved. This is the type of attitude that shows that the message is from God. When we rip and tear at the sheep without any sense of love, how could we possibly know the message is from God? Yes, it is the truth spoken with love that proves it is from God and proves us as a true messenger of the Great Shepherd.