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This is the sixth in a series of simulated interviews with the Apostle Paul taken from the position of what he might say if we could transport Paul from the New Testament account through a time tunnel into our present day.<\/p>\n
Doug, a strong complementarian has been patiently waiting to question Paul on his reference to the order of creation in 1 Timothy 2:13.\u00a0 Let\u2019s listen in.\u00a0 (The previous interviews are linked at the bottom of this post.)<\/p>\n
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Paul:<\/span> <\/strong>Grace and peace brother Doug.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> It has been days since you were here last.\u00a0 I was worried that you might not come back. \u00a0 What took you so long?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong>I was apprehended by a group of “Who would Jesus knock down?” thugs.\u00a0 It seems that some people in the twenty-first century do not accept my authority regarding the gospel.\u00a0 Remind me to tell you about it before I leave today.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> It appears your journey into our time has been very eventful.<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong>Cultures change and times change but the attempts of some to add to the gospel has not changed.\u00a0 I didn’t put up with it in my time and I won’t put up with it now either.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> I look forward to hearing about that story later.\u00a0 Right now I am anxious to follow through your reasoning concerning why you connected the prohibition of 1 Timothy 2:12 to the order of creation.<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong>I was expressing the basis or the foundation for my ruling.\u00a0 The importance of Adam’s first creation cannot be underestimated.\u00a0 Let’s look at the verses again.<\/p>\n 1 Tim 2:13\u00a0 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. Adam was formed before Eve.\u00a0 The emphasis I made was on the timing.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> So Adam was the most important?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong>No, that is not what I was saying.\u00a0 I did not write that the prohibition was about Adam’s importance<\/strong><\/em> but it was all about timing<\/strong><\/em>.\u00a0 Follow with me through the flow of thought from verse 13 to verse 14.\u00a0 There is a logical relationship between these verses.\u00a0 I used a connective conjunction in Greek to draw together the additional idea of deception<\/strong><\/em> to the previous idea of timing<\/strong><\/em>.<\/p>\n First<\/strong> in time = not deceived<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n Next<\/strong> in time = deceived<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Are you saying that all women are deceived because Eve was created second?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong>No, not at all.\u00a0 I did not use the generic here as if Adam was representative of all men and Eve was representative of all women.\u00a0 I was referring to an actual event in history that had an application to another deception.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Are you saying that you were not setting up a primary role for the man?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong>There is nothing in my words that indicate a “role” that is being established.\u00a0 The connective words leads to the picture of deception.\u00a0 Notice that I presented a contrast.\u00a0 It was not Adam who was deceived, but <\/strong><\/em>the woman being deceived…\u00a0 This contrast refers to the opposite state of affairs between one person from the past and the other from the ongoing problem.\u00a0 I contrasted\u00a0 the “not” deceived state of Adam with the continued state of the woman.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> What do you mean “continued state”?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> When I wrote that “the woman” was deceived I used the “active” form which means that she is in the state of deception.\u00a0 And because she is deceived she is in the place of transgression.\u00a0 I used the perfect tense for “transgression” to emphasize that her deception occurred in the past but it has produced a state of existence for her at the time I wrote it.\u00a0 It is her “state of affairs” and it is the problem that Timothy had to deal with.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> How could Eve still be deceived and in her transgression?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> She can’t be.\u00a0 This isn’t about Eve.\u00a0 Don’t you understand?\u00a0 While I mentioned Eve in verse 13, in verse 14 I go beyond Eve.\u00a0 I drew the connection between the very first act of deception and the current deception.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Are you tying in Eve’s deception to all women?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> No this isn’t about all women.\u00a0 The grammar is specific.\u00a0 It is about the “state of being” in transgression that is the result of a deception.\u00a0 Not all women are deceived.\u00a0 And the bible never says that women inherit transgression from Eve.\u00a0 You know that not all women are deceived, don’t you Doug?<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Of course I know that all women aren’t deceived.\u00a0 But I don’t understand your reasoning.\u00a0 Why did you bring Adam into this equation if this isn’t about men’s roles or about the weakness of all women?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Let’s go back to Genesis and you should be able to see the connection that I made.\u00a0 Let me ask you a question first that should set the stage.\u00a0 We can both agree that Eve was deceived by the serpent, right?<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Sure.<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> How would Eve not<\/strong><\/em> have been deceived?<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> I suppose if Adam would have spoken up and revealed the deception then she would not have been deceived.<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> You got it!\u00a0 God job.\u00a0 Now tell me, Doug, why was Adam not deceived?<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Hmmm….that question isn’t so easy to answer.<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Let’s rule out some things.\u00a0 Was Adam not deceived because he was better than Eve?<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> They were both created perfect and without sin.\u00a0 Can perfection be better in one person than another?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Good question!\u00a0 The only way that Adam could be better than Eve would be if she was created with a weakness.\u00a0 Is that what happened?<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> No.<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Okay, good.\u00a0 Now let’s look at Genesis.\u00a0 Let’s start in Genesis 2:6 that sets the stage for the creation of man.<\/p>\n Gen 2:6\u00a0 But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. Gen 2:7\u00a0 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n In Genesis 2:7 it says God “formed” man and “breathed” into his nostrils.\u00a0 The Hebrew verbs for “formed” and “breathed” are prefixed sequential verbs.\u00a0 This means that the actions happened one after another in order.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> No problem with that.\u00a0 So after the watering of the ground, then God created the man next and after he created him he breathed God’s breath into him.<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Yes, that’s what happened.\u00a0 Here the story line is sequential so we can know that one thing happened after the other because of the specific Hebrew grammar.\u00a0 Now let’s look at verse 8.<\/p>\n Gen 2:8\u00a0 The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Here it says “planted” and again this is a prefixed sequential verb<\/strong><\/em>.\u00a0 It means that after man was created, God planted a garden.\u00a0 Take a look at the next phrase where it says God “placed the man whom he had formed”.\u00a0 The verb “put” is another prefixed sequential verb but “had formed” is not sequential, it is a suffixed verb.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> I am not that good with grammar.\u00a0 Are you expecting me to understand this?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> It really isn’t all that hard.\u00a0 Let’s make it easy by saying a verb can be either sequential or non-sequential.\u00a0 God “put” Adam into the garden after the garden was planted.\u00a0 That is sequential.\u00a0 It happened one event after the other.\u00a0 He put the man whom he “had formed” into the garden.\u00a0 “Had formed” here is not a sequential verb.\u00a0 Instead this verb means that the forming had already done done.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Okay, I can go along with you there.<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> If God created man before<\/strong><\/em> he planted the garden of Eden, would Adam have seen a fully created garden when he was first created?<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Well, no.\u00a0 The garden would have been created after Adam was formed if we can believe the Hebrew grammar.<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Good.\u00a0 What day was man created on?<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Day six.<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> And what day were plants created on?<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Day three.\u00a0 That is found in Genesis 1:11-13.<\/p>\n Gen 1:11\u00a0 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Right!\u00a0 Now notice that God created the seeds on day three but the plants themselves didn’t show up until day six.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> How do you know that?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Because the seeds that God created in Genesis 1:11-12 were tree seeds and plant seeds and vegetation seeds that had not yet sprouted up as plants.\u00a0 They were all in their original seed form only.\u00a0 That is what God created on day three.\u00a0 God tells us in Genesis 2:5 that these seeds that God created had not yet sprung up as plants and why they were still in the ground as seeds.<\/p>\n Gen 2:5\u00a0 Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth<\/strong><\/em>, and there was no man to cultivate the ground.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> So the earth would have looked bare?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Yes until after the creation of man.\u00a0 What did Genesis say was the sequential event that happened just before God created man?<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Genesis 2:6 – the whole surface of the ground received water.<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Yes and then man was created from that moist earth.\u00a0 The earth was now watered but there was no visible vegetation showing as the plant seeds had just received their moisture.\u00a0 Now Genesis 2:5 says that there were no shrubs and no plants yet when Adam was created even though God created them on day three.\u00a0 They were still in the seed stage and since the world was barren of grown plants at this point, would there have been anything to obstruct Adam’s view when God planted the garden of Eden?\u00a0 What do you think that Adam was privileged to see?<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> I never ever thought of it that way.\u00a0 Adam would have seen the very first plants come to life and he would have seen God plant the garden of Eden.\u00a0 But what would he have eaten?\u00a0 Would that have left Adam without food for a long time while the garden grew?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> No because the garden of Eden was a miracle that God created.\u00a0 The Scriptures tell us that there was no plant in the field when Adam was created so there was nothing for Adam to eat there, but God planted a garden after Adam was created and this garden grew in a way that the other plants did not.\u00a0 The other plants were created by seed and grew through the normal plant cycle, but the garden that God planted grew up right before Adam’s eyes.\u00a0 God made those trees to grow so that when God placed Adam in his new home the trees were already full grown enough to have their fruit at the stage where it could be eaten.\u00a0 Adam was there before the tree of life was planted and before the tree of the knowledge of good and evil became a tree full of forbidden fruit.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Wow!\u00a0 That would have been an amazing sight to see creation first hand!<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> No other human has ever been privileged to see the creation of the plants right before his eyes.\u00a0 But there was something else that was very special that Adam was given the privilege of seeing.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> What was that?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Let’s take a look at Genesis 2:18-19.<\/p>\n Gen 2:18\u00a0 Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” The verb “formed” in verse 19 is once again a prefixed sequential verb<\/strong><\/em>.\u00a0 This means that the animals that God formed on day six were created after Adam was created.\u00a0 They were formed out of the ground and then brought to Adam.\u00a0 Both the forming<\/strong><\/em> and the bringing<\/strong><\/em> are prefixed sequential verbs<\/strong><\/em> so the actions were done in a sequential manner one after the other.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Are you trying to tell me that Adam saw the creation of animals too?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> This is what the inspired grammar of the bible says.\u00a0 We all knew this because we could read the Hebrew and knew what it said.\u00a0 And Timothy was Greek so he could also read the bible from the Greek Septuagint as well.\u00a0 The Greek version of the Hebrew bible shows the grammar as God “is forming” the animals.\u00a0 (See the English version of the Hebrew here http:\/\/scripture4all.org\/OnlineInterlinear\/OTpdf\/gen2.pdf <\/a>)<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> You are blowing my mind!\u00a0 You mean Adam would have seen God’s creative acts with both plants and animals?<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Adam was there before the plants were visible on the earth.\u00a0 There were animals created just before Adam was created but we also know that all <\/strong><\/em>the animals were also created after<\/strong><\/em> Adam was created.\u00a0 It wasn’t until after Adam was created and God had sent water for the seeds in the field to grow plants, that animals were given the plants for their food.<\/p>\n Gen 1:27\u00a0 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. The food given to the animals in Genesis 1:30 is also a prefixed sequential verb.\u00a0 The food given to the animals is given after Adam’s creation.<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> But how could God create animals at two different times both before Adam and then after Adam’s creation?\u00a0 This doesn’t make any sense.<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Let me ask you a question.\u00a0 Did God create mankind before<\/strong><\/em> or after<\/strong><\/em> the garden of Eden was created?<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Before.<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Are you sure?<\/p>\n Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Well we have just seen from the Hebrew grammar that God planted the garden after<\/strong><\/em> Adam was formed so mankind was created before<\/strong><\/em> the garden.<\/p>\n Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> What about Eve?<\/p>\n
\n1 Tim 2:14\u00a0 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n
\nGen 1:12\u00a0 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.
\nGen 1:13\u00a0 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n
\nGen 2:19\u00a0 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n
\nGen 1:28\u00a0 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
\nGen 1:29\u00a0 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
\nGen 1:30\u00a0 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n