{"id":837,"date":"2009-01-30T21:13:38","date_gmt":"2009-01-31T05:13:38","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/strivetoenter.com\/wim\/?p=837"},"modified":"2013-03-25T21:13:56","modified_gmt":"2013-03-26T04:13:56","slug":"man-give-woman-self-understanding","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/01\/30\/man-give-woman-self-understanding\/","title":{"rendered":"Did the first man give woman her self-understanding?"},"content":{"rendered":"

Was the first man needed to give woman her self-understanding?\u00a0 According to Raymond C. Ortlund Jr.<\/strong><\/a> pastor of Immanuel Church in Nashville, the answer is yes.<\/p>\n

\"ray_ortlund1\"<\/p>\n

Ortlund has written chapter three of Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood <\/em>CBMW’s book. <\/em>In this chapter,\u00a0 <\/em>Ortlund says:<\/p>\n

In designating her “Woman” the man interprets her identity in relation to himself.\u00a0 Out of his own intuitive comprehension of who she is, he interprets her as feminine, unlike himself, and yet as his counterpart and equal.\u00a0 Indeed, he sees in her his very own flesh.\u00a0 And he interprets the woman not only for his own understanding of her, but also for her self-understanding<\/strong><\/em>.\u00a0 God did not explain to the woman who she was in relation to the man, although He could have done so<\/strong><\/em>.\u00a0 He allowed Adam to define the woman, in keeping with Adam’s headship.\u00a0 (emphasis mine)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Let me ask a couple of questions.\u00a0 Who explained to the man who he<\/strong><\/em> himself was for his own self-understanding? Apparently either God explained that to Adam or Adam didn’t need anyone to explain himself to himself.\u00a0 He just knew who he was just as he knew how to talk and knew how to eat without having a tutor to look after him.\u00a0 Is it not a wee bit biased to read into the text that Eve was in need<\/strong><\/em> of Adam to explain herself to herself?\u00a0 After all she started her existence awake while he slept.\u00a0 When he awoke, there was no sign of a confused woman who didn’t know who she was being dragged towards a man whom she also didn’t know who he was.\u00a0 It seems highly unlikely and without biblical support that she needed the man to tell her about her own existence so that she could understand herself.<\/p>\n

I also ask, how does Mr. Ortlund know<\/strong><\/em> that God did not speak to Eve at all before he brought her to Adam?\u00a0 How does Mr. Ortlund know <\/strong><\/em>that God allowed Adam to define her for her own self- understanding?\u00a0 Who explained to Adam that a piece of his own body would be used to make his mate? Does the fact that the bible is silent on the answers to these questions with no words quoted from God to Adam directly, prove that God did not speak to Adam personally about these issues?\u00a0 Is it not reasonable to understand that not everything that God spoke to Adam and Eve is\u00a0 quoted in the scripture?\u00a0 We do not need to know everything that Godspoke except what God inspired for our edification and for our understanding.\u00a0 We are not free to “fill in the blanks” with ideas that are foreign to the text.<\/p>\n

When Adam welcomed his wife by exclaiming that at last he found his mate, Adam’s identifying her as his own flesh and blood was not an act of taking his “royal prerogative” over her as Ortlund says.\u00a0 There is nothing in the text that has Adam’s clear acceptance of his wife as the mate coming from his own flesh to be interpreted as a sign of a\u00a0 “royal prerogative” dominion or rule.\u00a0\u00a0 After all, who gave Adam this rule over the woman?\u00a0 Did God tell Adam that he was giving him someone to rule?\u00a0 Did Adam state that she would be called woman for she would be ruled over by man?\u00a0 If we have nothing in the text that gave Adam rule over Eve, why do some so eagerly add a foreign meaning to the text?<\/p>\n

Ortlund goes on to the one thing that he says was made clear to Eve:<\/p>\n

Adam’s sovereign act<\/strong><\/em> not only arose out of his own sense of headship, it also made his headship clear to Eve<\/strong><\/em>.\u00a0 She found her own identity in relation to the man as his equal and helper by the man’s definition<\/strong><\/em>. (emphasis is mine)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

So the woman’s being and identify came not by God’s creative act and his divine plan, but by man’s definition<\/strong><\/em>?\u00a0 If this is true, then woman is truly the inferior of man.\u00a0 She then becomes subject to whatever he wants her to be and it is no longer God who defines the woman, but man.\u00a0 Ortlund’s error here seems to come from his misunderstanding what it means for Eve to be “made for him”. \u00a0His misunderstanding appears to be two-fold.\u00a0 First he sees “made for him<\/strong><\/em>” to be a position of her need<\/strong><\/em>. She then needs him<\/strong><\/em> to define her.\u00a0 She needs him<\/strong><\/em> to make decisions for her and tell her what to do.\u00a0 There is also an apparent misunderstanding that “made for him<\/strong><\/em>” means that he alone gets ultimate rule and that rule includes the “royal prerogative” to have charge over the woman just as he had charge of the animals.<\/p>\n

But when we let the bible speak for itself, we can allow God to define his own terms.\u00a0 The woman is<\/strong><\/em> indeed made for<\/strong><\/em> man, but she is made for man because<\/em><\/strong> God declared that man alone is “not good”.<\/p>\n

Genesis 2:18\u00a0 Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Since Adam alone was “not good” and the woman was made “for<\/strong><\/em> the man’s sake” (1 Cor. 11:9) then Eve was made to provide what Adam was lacking.\u00a0 Adam was not lacking having things to rule over.\u00a0 Adam was lacking someone to complete him. \u00a0 He needed her<\/strong><\/em>.\u00a0 The woman was made for<\/strong><\/em> the man.\u00a0 She brought strength not weakness.<\/p>\n

The last thing that we can talk about regarding the woman being made for the man, is how she was made.\u00a0 This issue is not one that Ortlund addresses, but many people have varying ideas of the woman’s creation so it is good to discuss.\u00a0 Some say that God originally made Adam as male and female and when God made the woman he separated her from the man to make woman independent of man as a separate person.\u00a0 Is this really what happened?\u00a0 I see nothing<\/strong><\/em> in the text that suggests there were male and female together in one body or that God took out the female part of Adam and from the female part of him, created a female person.<\/p>\n

Let’s reason this one through. Genesis 2:22 says:<\/p>\n

Gen 2:22\u00a0 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The word “rib” literally means\u00a0 side, rib, beam.\u00a0 So God took what belonged to the man and from that building material he “fashioned” it into a woman.\u00a0 We can note that it doesn’t<\/strong><\/em> say that God took the woman out<\/strong><\/em> of Adam and fashioned her<\/strong><\/em> into a separate person.\u00a0 It also doesn’t say that God split Adam by dividing his “male” parts and his “female” parts.\u00a0 It only says that he took an inner piece of Adam that was likened to a plank and he caused that “bone of Adam’s bone” and “flesh of Adam’s flesh” to be built up into a DNA directly related woman.<\/p>\n

If I am wrong about this, as some think Adam was both male and female in one person in the beginning, then scripture must be appealed to that says this.\u00a0 Those who want to prove me wrong will also need to answer some questions.\u00a0 If Adam was both male and female in the beginning, did he talk to his female part as a companion?\u00a0 Was he “not good” because he was an unnatural male with female parts?<\/p>\n

I believe that we need to keep away from fables and romantic myths and just stick to scripture.\u00a0 If scripture says it, I believe it.\u00a0 If it must be shoe horned into the text, let’s just let it go.\u00a0 If we don’t want complementarians to add to the text, then we shouldn’t either.<\/p>\n

Thoughts?\u00a0 Please let me know what you see in the scriptures.\u00a0 Did God create Eve to be a living appendage<\/strong><\/em> to Adam – to be subject to his wims (like an attached arm) and to have no will of her own to have the ability to make her own choices, or did God create Eve to be one who has free will like Adam and who also has the gifts and abilities to give Adam what he was lacking so that what was “not good” is now “good”?<\/p>\n

\"eve11\"<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Was the first man needed to give woman her self-understanding?\u00a0 According to Raymond C. Ortlund Jr. pastor of Immanuel Church in Nashville, the answer is yes. Ortlund has written chapter three of Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood CBMW’s book. In this chapter,\u00a0 Ortlund says: In designating her “Woman” the man interprets her identity in relation to himself.\u00a0 Out of his own intuitive comprehension of who she is, he interprets her as feminine, unlike himself, and yet as his counterpart and…<\/p>\n

Read More Read More<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_is_tweetstorm":false,"jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":[]},"categories":[10,24,42,51],"tags":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"yoast_head":"\nDid the first man give woman her self-understanding? - Women in Ministry<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/01\/30\/man-give-woman-self-understanding\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Did the first man give woman her self-understanding? - Women in Ministry\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Was the first man needed to give woman her self-understanding?\u00a0 According to Raymond C. Ortlund Jr. pastor of Immanuel Church in Nashville, the answer is yes. Ortlund has written chapter three of Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood CBMW’s book. In this chapter,\u00a0 Ortlund says: In designating her “Woman” the man interprets her identity in relation to himself.\u00a0 Out of his own intuitive comprehension of who she is, he interprets her as feminine, unlike himself, and yet as his counterpart and... 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Ortlund Jr., Mr. Ortlund redefines the creation account in such a way that God's creation of the male first is said to be necessary in order that the\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "1 Timothy 2"","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/01\/distort1.jpg?resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":875,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/02\/17\/adams-sin-imputed-to-eve\/","url_meta":{"origin":837,"position":1},"title":"Adam’s sin imputed to Eve?","date":"February 17, 2009","format":false,"excerpt":"\u00a0 One of the most bizarre teachings of CBMW is the one taught in Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood in chapter 3 written by Raymond C. Ortlund Jr.\u00a0 Here Mr. Ortlund states that God pronounced the death sentence on Adam alone so that Eve died not because she ate of\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Adam and headship"","img":{"alt_text":"Cheryl Schatz Adam's sin 4","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/02\/adam_sin41.jpg?resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":882,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/02\/20\/did-god-give-up-on-the-woman\/","url_meta":{"origin":837,"position":2},"title":"Did God give up on the woman?","date":"February 20, 2009","format":false,"excerpt":"Many people think that God was especially hard on Eve after she was deceived by the serpent in the garden.\u00a0 In fact hierarchists have determined that God was so hard on Eve by punishing her with a multitude of lashes for her sin, that some might get the idea that\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Adam and headship"","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":1906,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2010\/03\/21\/eve-usurped-adam-authority\/","url_meta":{"origin":837,"position":3},"title":"Common objections to women in ministry: Eve usurped Adam’s authority","date":"March 21, 2010","format":false,"excerpt":"Did Eve usurp Adam's Authority? 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