{"id":2300,"date":"2011-04-14T15:00:07","date_gmt":"2011-04-14T22:00:07","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/strivetoenter.com\/wim\/?p=2300"},"modified":"2016-09-18T19:45:08","modified_gmt":"2016-09-19T02:45:08","slug":"1-timothy-212-prohibitions-revisited","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2011\/04\/14\/1-timothy-212-prohibitions-revisited\/","title":{"rendered":"1 Timothy 2:12 prohibitions revisited"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"1-timothy-2-12-prohibitions\"<\/span><\/p>\n

I started a post months\u00a0<\/span>ago and then life became so complicated I had to set my blog aside to cope. \u00a0This post will now be the new “home” on the discussion on whether 1 Timothy 2:12 has two prohibitions or one. \u00a0As a review here is what I originally wrote:<\/span><\/p>\n

Complementarians typically say that Paul is prohibiting two things (teaching and exercising authority over a man) while many egalitarians are taking the position that there is only one thing that Paul has prohibited.\u00a0 The prohibition is listed as God is against women\u00a0assuming authority for themselves to teach men<\/strong><\/em>.\u00a0 This view has been brought out by Philip B. Payne in \u201cMan and Woman One in Christ\u201d pg 338.<\/span><\/p>\n

I do not agree with complementarians that there are two entirely separate prohibitions that are not connected.\u00a0 But I do not agree with Philip Payne either that there is only\u00a0one prohibition<\/strong><\/em> and that this prohibition is to be defined as the forbidding of women to\u00a0assume authority<\/strong><\/em> for\u00a0themselves<\/strong><\/em> to teach men without a\u00a0properly delegated authority<\/strong><\/em> from men.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

As I have been reading through Philip B. Payne’s book, I have been paying special attention to his process of reasoning. \u00a0First of all,\u00a0<\/span>I should say that I really appreciate the fact that Mr. Payne has written this book in an effort to affirm women’s place in the body of Christ. \u00a0I know that many have found his work very compelling even though I have some serious disagreements with his work. \u00a0I want to affirm him as a dear brother in Christ at the outset and I appreciate any man willing to stick his neck out to support his sisters in Christ.<\/span><\/p>\n

Philip B. Payne’s thesis starts in chapter 19, as he asserts on page 338 that the Greek term “oude” <\/span>(English “or”) is typically used by Paul to join together expressions that reinforce or make more specific a single idea. \u00a0Here it is in context:<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

1 Timothy 2:12 (NASB95)<\/span><\/p>\n

12<\/sup>But I do not allow a woman to teach or<\/em><\/strong><\/span> exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Rather than the conjunction “or” connecting two related terms, Payne concludes that it must be the type of teaching that is forbidden thus it is one prohibition and not two. \u00a0His view is that “<\/span>authentein” means to “assume authority” so that the one prohibition that is forbidden to women is to “assume authority” to teach men. \u00a0Payne writes:<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

Since false teaching is the occasion of this letter (1 Tim 3:1-11), and since false teaching influenced the women in Ephesus particularly, Paul first commands that women learn in silence and full submission in order to turn deceived women away from the false teaching and to encourage them to embrace the true gospel. \u00a0Combined with this, he institutes a present prohibition against any woman seizing authority for herself to teach a man. \u00a0Paul’s goal is to exclude any unauthorized woman from teaching men in the church. \u00a0This prohibition does not, however, restrict teaching by authorized women, such as Priscilla, (2 Timothy 4:19), since just such teaching might be critical in influencing deceived women to reject error and embrace the truth.<\/span><\/p>\n

Paul’s prohibition of women with self-assumed authority teaching men does not imply that he approves men teaching with self-assumed authority, particularly if they also promote false teaching. Indeed, he had already commanded certain men not to teach false doctrine (1 Timothy 1:3, 20).<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

There are several problems with Payne’s view. \u00a0The first problem is why Paul would restrict women from teaching men but not restrict them from teaching women. \u00a0No such prohibition exists against a woman from “seizing authority for herself” to teach women. \u00a0Why is it that a woman must have an authorization\u00a0<\/span>to teach men but not have to have an authorization\u00a0<\/span>to teach women? \u00a0It also doesn’t make sense that men are not\u00a0generically forbidden to “assume authority” to teach men. \u00a0Payne states that men are not approved of teaching with self-assumed authority because they had already been commanded not to teach false doctrine. \u00a0The problem is that the quote from 1 Timothy 1:3 that Payne gives is not a term specific to males but an inclusive term used for people. \u00a0Also the quote from 1 Timothy 1:20 that he gives was also not a command to men in general but a statement about delivering over of two specific deliberate deceivers so that they will be taught not to blaspheme. \u00a0Those who do things defiantly, such as teaching error deliberately with full knowledge of the truth, are said to be blaspheming the Lord. \u00a0We see this clearly in Numbers 15:30 –<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

Numbers 15:30 (NASB95)<\/span><\/p>\n

30<\/sup>\u2018But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the Lord; and that person shall be cut off from among his people.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Paul saw the false teaching of two specific men as blasphemy and their defiant teaching against the truth was cause to turn them over to satan. \u00a0Paul did not turn those who had been deceived over to satan, but the defiant false teachers were treated in a special way. \u00a0So even though Payne says that men were specifically told not to teach with self-assumed authority, the verses that Payne quotes are generic verses for false teachers, and two specific men who are teaching error in a defiant manner such that they are said to be blaspheming. \u00a0There are no specific commands to males not to “assume authority” to teach men or women.<\/span><\/p>\n

The assumption that Payne brings to his view, is that only women need to be authorized to teach males. \u00a0This brings a very serious problem for Payne’s position because it makes women less than “one” with men. How are man and woman “One in Christ” if one must be authorized to teach, while the other needs no authorization? \u00a0Payne shows no difference between the women who were teaching the truth and the women who were teaching error. \u00a0All were required to be authorized first before they could teach men. \u00a0This provides a less than “oneness” with men who are never said to need authorization to teach the truth.<\/span><\/p>\n

Was there really a need to authorize women to teach men? \u00a0Jesus speaks in Revelation 2:20 about a woman teacher:<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

Revelation 2:20\u201322 (NASB95)<\/span><\/p>\n

20<\/sup>\u2018But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.<\/span><\/p>\n

21<\/sup>\u2018I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.<\/span><\/p>\n

22<\/sup>\u2018Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Notice that Jesus said that He has this against the Church in Thyatira, that they allow the woman Jezebel, as she teaches and leads Christ’s bondservants<\/span>\u00a0astray. \u00a0Notice that there are two things<\/em><\/strong> that are tolerated from Jezebel and although one is normally a good thing (to teach), in the context both “to teach” and “to lead astray” are related as evil acts. \u00a0The teaching is listed as teaching Christ’s bondservants\u00a0<\/span>to eat things sacrificed to idols. \u00a0This act of teaching error implies that she is teaching men to go against their conscience. \u00a0Her related activity of leading astray is defined as leading Christ’s bondservants\u00a0<\/span>into sexual immorality so that they commit adultery with her.<\/span><\/p>\n

If we took Philip Payne’s view, Christ would only be saying that Jezebel has done one thing wrong with teaching error, while the list of what she did involves two things: teaching error and leading into sexual immorality. \u00a0While the two are related, they are two <\/span>problems not one.<\/span><\/p>\n

We can also notice from Jesus’ words that the Church at Thyatira is not being corrected because they allow a woman teacher. \u00a0They are being corrected because they tolerate a teacher who is teaching error and they are tolerating her leading Christ’s servants into immorality. \u00a0The Church is not corrected because Jezebel is teaching without proper authority from the men.<\/span><\/p>\n

Notice also in verse 21 that Jesus gave Jezebel time to repent of her sexual immorality. \u00a0He did not say that He was giving her time to repent from teaching truth to men nor did He say that He was giving her time to repent for the sin of not getting proper authority to teach. \u00a0It is what<\/em><\/strong> she was teaching and what<\/em><\/strong> she was leading into that was the cause of the problems. \u00a0The problem was not the fact that she was a woman nor the fact that she had not received an authority to teach men while men were home free not needing to obtain authority from men before they taught other men.<\/span><\/p>\n

Philip Payne also states that Priscilla was able to teach because she had received the proper authority to teach and she had not taken this authority upon herself, yet he gives no verse that would show this needed authority that was given to her. \u00a0The fact is that Priscilla taught because she had truth\u00a0<\/span>that someone else needed to hear. \u00a0Apollos had a need for an expanded view of the truth and Priscilla did not withhold from him the knowledge of the truth that she had. \u00a0The Bible shows that having the knowledge of the truth requires us to use this information for good.<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

Luke 12:48 (NASB95)<\/span><\/p>\n

48<\/sup>…From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Priscilla had the knowledge of the truth and she used it for the glory of God as she corrected Apollos. \u00a0She did not need to ask men for the authority to teach Apollos since she had been entrusted with the truth <\/span>by God. \u00a0She used what she had been given for Apollos’ good and she used her knowledge without prejudice.<\/span><\/p>\n

I will go through more of Philip B. Payne’s writings sometime in the future and I hope that this post has been helpful.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

I started a post months\u00a0ago and then life became so complicated I had to set my blog aside to cope. \u00a0This post will now be the new “home” on the discussion on whether 1 Timothy 2:12 has two prohibitions or one. \u00a0As a review here is what I originally wrote: Complementarians typically say that Paul is prohibiting two things (teaching and exercising authority over a man) while many egalitarians are taking the position that there is only one thing that…<\/p>\n

Read More Read More<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_is_tweetstorm":false,"jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":[]},"categories":[5,6,14,20,72],"tags":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"yoast_head":"\n1 Timothy 2:12 prohibitions revisited - Women in Ministry<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"1 Timothy 2:12 reviewing Philip B. 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In 1 Timothy 2:12 is there one prohibition or two?\u00a0 Complementarians typically say that Paul is prohibiting two things (teaching and exercising authority over a man) while many egalitarians are taking the position that there is only one thing that Paul has prohibited.\u00a0\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "1 Timothy 2"","img":{"alt_text":"1 Timothy 2:12 two prohibitions or one? on Women in Ministry by Cheryl Schatz","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2010\/12\/two-or-one.jpg?resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":1770,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2010\/01\/11\/using-pauls-authority\/","url_meta":{"origin":2300,"position":1},"title":"Using Paul’s authority","date":"January 11, 2010","format":false,"excerpt":"\u00a0 Why did Timothy need Paul's authority? Paul's use of \"I am not allowing\" in 1 Timothy 2:12 has caused a lot of speculation regarding his reasons for disallowing certain activities. In this post, we are going to look at this phrase very carefully. The first thing that we can\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "1 Timothy 2"","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2010\/01\/using-authority.jpg?resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":227,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2008\/05\/11\/only-one-verse\/","url_meta":{"origin":2300,"position":2},"title":"Only one verse prohibits women to teach men?","date":"May 11, 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"In my continuing review of CARM and Matt Slick\u2019s articles on women in ministry, this post is about Matt\u2019s article titled \u201cOnly one verse prohibits women to teach men, so it doesn\u2019t apply to the whole church\u201d Matt writes: First of all, if it is true that the Bible teaches\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "1 Timothy 2"","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":514,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2008\/09\/26\/a-deeper-look-1tim2\/","url_meta":{"origin":2300,"position":3},"title":"A deeper look into 1 Timothy 2:12","date":"September 26, 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"This is a response to an article called \"A Deeper Look into: 1 Timothy 2:12\" by an author posting by the email address of carmradio@ymail.com on September 23, 2008.\u00a0 I will leave his name off this post. There are so many fallacies in the article that I hardly know where\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "1 Timothy 2"","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":2629,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2012\/07\/21\/wim-digital-future\/","url_meta":{"origin":2300,"position":4},"title":"Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free? to enter the digital future","date":"July 21, 2012","format":false,"excerpt":"Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free? is now available for download or viewing online Update: All of my Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free? DVDs are available for downloading or viewing online here. The DVDs also include audio bytes from those who disagree with women in ministry and\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "1 Corinthians 11"","img":{"alt_text":"WIM digital","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/07\/wim-digital.jpg?resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":60,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2006\/11\/29\/does-god-have-one-unique-law-part-one\/","url_meta":{"origin":2300,"position":5},"title":"Does God have one unique law? Part One","date":"November 29, 2006","format":false,"excerpt":"Does God have one unique law? If complementarians are right in their interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:12, then God must have one completely unique law. This \"law\"\u009d forbidding women from teaching the bible to men is not like any other law in the bible. 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