{"id":224,"date":"2008-05-09T22:55:57","date_gmt":"2008-05-10T05:55:57","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/strivetoenter.com\/wim\/?p=224"},"modified":"2017-06-18T15:17:11","modified_gmt":"2017-06-18T22:17:11","slug":"matt-slick-she-they","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2008\/05\/09\/matt-slick-she-they\/","title":{"rendered":"Answering Matt Slick on she and they from 1 Timothy 2:15"},"content":{"rendered":"

This is a continuation of my evaluation of Matt Slick\u2019s articles on women in ministry. Matt has been working for weeks to try to refute my interpretations. I welcome a challenge and I believe that truth will stand up to the test while error will not stand up to the challenge. Matt on the other hand apparently is not comfortable with a challenge on the women\u2019s issue and has not allowed me to challenge him publicly even in a respectful way. ***Matt Slick said that I was not welcome to come back on his radio show unless I could limit my comments to 1.5 minutes. How many people would agree to that? I did agree and Matt backed down. I challenge Matt to a written debate since he cannot speak to me without limiting my audio responses, I think the written format would be a great one. I challenge Matt Slick to come on this blog and continue a public dialog with me on the women’s issue. I have created <\/strong>a public debate post here<\/a><\/strong>. He can say what he wants without my editing him and I will respond and then we can let the readers challenge either one of us during question period.*** His vice-president has gone so far as to forbid people from mentioning my name or the name of my blog on CARM\u2019s discussion board and she has either blocked my posts or held them in moderation without warning. While I am appalled at the milieu control that goes on in Matt Slick\u2019s discussion board, I do believe that Matt\u2019s articles that he has written in response to my interpretations are worthy of answering and so the next few posts will be dedicated to refuting of Matt\u2019s reasoning on women in ministry.<\/p>\n

The article that I will be referencing from CARM and Matt Slick is called \u201c1 Timothy 2:15, she, they, and salvation through child bearing<\/a><\/strong>\u201d. Matt says:<\/p>\n

\u201cOne of the arguments from the egalitarians use to deny Paul\u2019s prohibition against women being in positions of spiritual authority in the church is that \u201cshe\u201d in v.15) refers to the same \u201ca woman\u201d (a particular individual) mentioned in verses 11 and 12. This specific women (sic) had been deceived by someone and had been teaching false doctrines to her husband. So, Paul, to be polite, didn\u2019t name her and just said \u201ca woman.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

While Matt characterizes my position as just Paul being \u201cpolite\u201d, I don\u2019t see it as \u201cpolite\u201d but a concern for those whose names could be connected to false teaching for all of church history. When the teachers who have been deceived are taught the truth and they come to know the truth, their names would still be written down in scripture for all church history as an example of their shame. Paul had no problem exposing those who acted as deliberate deceivers (Hymenaeus and Alexander) or who were acting hypocritically (Peter) but those who were deceived because of their ignorance were never named. I believe that the Holy Spirit kept their names out of scripture so that there was not a legacy of their error connected to their name. These people were eligible to receive God\u2019s grace and they may well turn and receive forgiveness. It is God\u2019s grace that kept their names out of the scriptures.<\/p>\n

Matt next says that the text of 1 Timothy 2:12 referring to \u201ca woman\u201d who was a particular individual had been already refuted, but that is not the case. My last two posts here<\/strong><\/a> and here<\/strong><\/a> reveal the holes in Matt\u2019s arguments. So what is Matt\u2019s answer to who is the \u201cshe\u201d and who are the \u201cthey\u201d in 1 Timothy 2:15? Matt says:<\/p>\n

\u201cHe first speaks of women as \u201cshe\u201d by analogy in reference to Eve (she) and then moves to \u201cthey\u201d as he speaks to women in general, applying the principle of Eve\u2019s \u201cwomanness\u201d to them\u2026\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This explanation of the \u201cshe\u201d and \u201cthey\u201d problem in verse 15 is quite telling. By this reasoning, Matt shows that:<\/p>\n

She = women (in general<\/span> with Eve as an analogy)<\/p>\n

They = women in general<\/span> (with Eve presumably part of the general women\u2019s group)<\/p>\n

Therefore “she” is the exact same thing as “they”. This is unreasonable in the precise grammar that Paul uses. A singular cannot equal a plural. I would like Matt to give me another example in scripture where it is permissible to use a singular \u201cshe or he\u201d to be equal to \u201cthey\u201d. It isn\u2019t anywhere in scripture because it is improper and illogical grammar. Where does he get the idea that one can transfer a \u201cwomanness\u201d by making “she” to be equal to “they”? What Matt is doing is trying desperately to ignore the clear meaning of the text. When Paul said \u201cshe\u201d AND \u201cthey\u201d, he meant exactly that. He was referring to a specific single woman and by \u201cthey\u201d Paul means more than one person. \u201cShe\u201d can be a part of \u201cthey\u201d but “she” cannot be the exact same as \u201cthey\u201d or there is a violation of grammar. This is a very weak point in Matt\u2019s argument and an obvious attempt at noodling with the grammar and the text.<\/p>\n

The other point that causes Matt a problem with his interpretation is that Paul says that “She will be saved…” Eve cannot be an analogy in a future tense. Eve is dead and cannot do anything about her salvation and neither can all women (they) do anything about Eve’s salvation. Once again Matt’s interpretation have more problems then they solve, if they solve anything at all!<\/p>\n

Next Matt tries to give his interpretation of \u201cshe will be saved through the childbearing\u201d. Matt says that the phrase is probably a play on words occurring in the Greek. He writes:<\/p>\n

\u201c\u2026when it says \u201cshe will be saved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith\u2026”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The first thing that I note is the quote that Matt gives is not the correct grammar from the passage. \u201cThe child bearing\u201d is a noun not a verb and it is singular (the) not plural.<\/p>\n

Matt continues:<\/p>\n

\u201cPaul may very well have been referring to this goddess (Artemis) by saying that the Ephesian women who were converts from the cult of Artemis\/Soteira were to trust in Christ to deliver them through childbirth instead of looking to the pagan goddess.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

There is a major problem with this view. The grammar in verse 15 is a promise with conditions. \u201cShe will be saved through the child bearing if they\u2026.\u201d However if we take this passage to mean that the Ephesian women would be saved from harm during the childbirth process then God lied because many Christian women have died giving birth to children. It also does not make sense for Paul to be making a salvation promise by making a side reference to a Greek goddess when it is \u201cTHE child bearing\u201d (a specific noun) that is referenced and there is no such reference to ONE child in this goddess worship. Matt\u2019s arguments are not logical in context. There is no biblical support for taking a single \u201cshe\u201d and making it equal to a plural \u201cthey\u201d nor is there any reference to Artemis in 1 Timothy for Paul to be referring back to, nor is a single childbearing (specific – THE) something from the Artemis worship. Additionally salvation through the birth process was not an actuality so such an interpretation would fall to the ground making God to be one who doesn\u2019t keep his promises.<\/p>\n

The plain reading of 1 Timothy 2:15 is that THE seed of the woman (the Messiah) is the one who will bring salvation (as originally promised in Genesis 3:15) and \u201cshe\u201d is a single woman who Paul has been talking about who is not the same as \u201cthey\u201d. If \u201cshe\u201d indeed is a single woman as the grammar proves, then \u201ca woman\u201d and \u201cthe woman\u201d from verses 11, 12, 14 are all references to the single deceived woman in Ephesus who Paul has stopped from teaching the man whom she has been influencing in her deception.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

This is a continuation of my evaluation of Matt Slick\u2019s articles on women in ministry. Matt has been working for weeks to try to refute my interpretations. I welcome a challenge and I believe that truth will stand up to the test while error will not stand up to the challenge. Matt on the other hand apparently is not comfortable with a challenge on the women\u2019s issue and has not allowed me to challenge him publicly even in a respectful…<\/p>\n

Read More Read More<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_is_tweetstorm":false,"jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":[]},"categories":[5,30,31,52],"tags":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"yoast_head":"\nAnswering Matt Slick on she and they from 1 Timothy 2:15 - Women in Ministry<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2008\/05\/09\/matt-slick-she-they\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Answering Matt Slick on she and they from 1 Timothy 2:15 - Women in Ministry\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"This is a continuation of my evaluation of Matt Slick\u2019s articles on women in ministry. 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See part one here. My article laying out the original argument showing that 1 Timothy 2:12 is a specific woman that Paul forbids from teaching is here. In Matt\u2019s article on CARM 1 Timothy\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "1 Timothy 2"","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":237,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2008\/06\/09\/noodling-with-the-greek-grammar\/","url_meta":{"origin":224,"position":1},"title":"Noodling with the Greek grammar in 1 Timothy 2:15","date":"June 9, 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"While I have made a very strong point of the Greek grammar in 1 Timothy 2:15 with the singular \"she\" and the plural \"they\" (no specific gender for \"they\"), some have been trying hard to wiggle out of the implications that Paul is referring to a specific woman because the\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "1 Timothy 2"","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":170,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2007\/09\/26\/matt-slick-and-cheryl-schatz-debate-2\/","url_meta":{"origin":224,"position":2},"title":"Matt Slick and Cheryl Schatz debate 2","date":"September 26, 2007","format":false,"excerpt":"\u00a0Matt Slick and I had an interesting discussion on whether Paul was stopping true biblical teaching in 1 Timothy 2:12 or whether Paul was stopping error.\u00a0 My answer concerning the imperative command to let a woman learn (1 Timothy 2:11) and the fact that all teaching by \"a woman\" was\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Debates"","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":398,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2008\/09\/06\/public-statement-regarding-matt-slick\/","url_meta":{"origin":224,"position":3},"title":"Public statement regarding Cheryl Schatz’s Matthew 18 meeting with Matt Slick","date":"September 6, 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"Public Statement regarding the Cheryl Schatz initiated Matthew 18 meeting with Matt Slick (CARM) A meeting was held on August 22, 2008 in Idaho as my husband and I and our Pastor traveled to meet with Matt Slick. The reconciliation meeting was initiated by myself and we journied 12 hours\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Misrepresentations"","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":233,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2008\/05\/18\/eve-deceived-adam-not\/","url_meta":{"origin":224,"position":4},"title":"Eve was deceived, Adam was not","date":"May 18, 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"For a PDF copy of this article click here Eve was Deceived pdf file This article is a refutation of Matt Slick\u2019s article that he has written in an attempt to refute my teaching on 1 Timothy 2:11-15. **While Matt Slick refuses to debate these teachings in writing on this\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "1 Timothy 2"","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":222,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2008\/05\/06\/1tim2objections\/","url_meta":{"origin":224,"position":5},"title":"1 Timothy 2:11-15 answering objections to “a woman”","date":"May 6, 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"My article laying out the original argument showing that 1 Timothy 2:12 is a specific woman that Paul forbids from teaching is here. Matt Slick has put up several articles attempting to refute my reasoning and today I would like to answer Matt\u2019s \u201crefutation\u201d. 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