{"id":1828,"date":"2010-02-09T23:25:46","date_gmt":"2010-02-10T06:25:46","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/strivetoenter.com\/wim\/?p=1828"},"modified":"2016-09-22T13:16:15","modified_gmt":"2016-09-22T20:16:15","slug":"womens-speaking-dishonors-men","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2010\/02\/09\/womens-speaking-dishonors-men\/","title":{"rendered":"Common objections: women&#8217;s speaking and leading dishonors men"},"content":{"rendered":"<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><img data-attachment-id=\"1829\" data-permalink=\"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2010\/02\/09\/womens-speaking-dishonors-men\/shame\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2010\/01\/shame.jpg?fit=186%2C475&amp;ssl=1\" data-orig-size=\"186,475\" data-comments-opened=\"1\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"shame on Women in Ministry blog by Cheryl Schatz\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-medium-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2010\/01\/shame.jpg?fit=117%2C300&amp;ssl=1\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2010\/01\/shame.jpg?fit=186%2C475&amp;ssl=1\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-1829\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2010\/01\/shame.jpg?resize=186%2C475\" alt=\"shame on Women in Ministry blog by Cheryl Schatz\" width=\"186\" height=\"475\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2010\/01\/shame.jpg?w=186&amp;ssl=1 186w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2010\/01\/shame.jpg?resize=117%2C300&amp;ssl=1 117w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 186px) 100vw, 186px\" data-recalc-dims=\"1\" \/><\/p>\n<h1>The &#8220;role&#8221; of men and dishonor<\/h1>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">Another common objection to women in ministry is the claim that when women speak and lead publicly it dishonors men.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW) speaks of this as dishonoring the &#8220;calling&#8221; of men:<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">We would say that the teaching inappropriate for a woman\u00a0is the teaching of men in settings or ways that dishonor the calling of men to bear the\u00a0primary responsibility for teaching and leadership. This primary responsibility is to be\u00a0carried by the pastors or elders. Therefore we think it is God\u2019s will that only men bear the\u00a0responsibility for this office. (pg 64 online version)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">One thing that we can notice from the quote above is that CBMW says &#8220;we <strong><em>think<\/em><\/strong> it is God&#8217;s will&#8230;&#8221;. \u00a0The fact that they don&#8217;t know for sure is telling. <!--more-->The fact is that God has not revealed in the Scriptures that it is His will that only men can teach and lead in their gifts. God has also not revealed that women can never teach and lead with their gifts in the body of Christ. \u00a0Instead of a sure word from God, &#8220;inappropriateness&#8221; of the public use of women&#8217;s gifts is a position based on what some surmise is God&#8217;s will. \u00a0It is a result of the teaching that men alone bear the God-ordained\u00a0responsibility\u00a0for teaching.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">CBMW continues with the thought that it isn&#8217;t about competency:<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">The issue is not whether women are\u00a0competent or intelligent or wise or well-taught. The issue is how they relate to the men of\u00a0the church. &#8230;\u00a0So the issue of shamefulness is at root an issue of doing\u00a0something that would<strong><em> dishonor the role of the men<\/em><\/strong> as leaders of the congregation. (pg 65 online version, my emphasis)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">So, according to CBMW, the issue is not about whether God gifts women or about women&#8217;s intelligence or their wisdom or how well-taught they are. The focus is solely on men&#8217;s dishonor. Where does this issue of shame and dishonor come from? \u00a0Is it a Biblical teaching or does it come from shame-based cultural &#8220;laws&#8221;? \u00a0There is no doubt that the worldly system is based on honor and shame. \u00a0In worldly Islamic societies if a woman does something that is considered a shame to the man she may suffer punishment even to the extent of losing her own life. \u00a0In ancient Jewish culture recorded in the Talmud, a man may suffer shame by his wife exposing the hair on her head in public or by exposing a bare ankle or her forearm. \u00a0A man was encouraged to deal with this shame by divorcing his wife. \u00a0It was his right to punish her for<strong><em> his dishonor<\/em><\/strong>. \u00a0This was the world&#8217;s way of handling men&#8217;s dishonor, but is it Biblical to accuse women of shaming and dishonoring men by using their God-given gifts?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">If we do a Biblical search for the issue of shame or dishonor coming upon godly Christian men merely because of a woman using her spiritual gifts, we find no verse that teaches such a thing. \u00a0No woman is ever charged with dishonoring a man by giving her gifts for the benefit of the body of Christ. \u00a0So where does CBMW get such an idea that women teaching the truth of God&#8217;s Word shames and dishonors men? \u00a0I suggest that issues of shame and dishonor follow quite naturally with the issue of pride. \u00a0Proverbs 11:2 speaks of pride that brings dishonor:<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">Proverbs 11:2 \u00a0<strong><em>When pride comes, then comes dishonor<\/em><\/strong>, \u00a0But with the humble is wisdom.\u00a0(NASB)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">When one has a coveted &#8220;position&#8221; or &#8220;office&#8221; to defend, the pride that follows will set up boundaries to hold others outside. Then when women<em> dare<\/em> to function in the gifting that these men believe they alone have received from God, their pride is hurt, and shame, and dishonor follows.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">Paul did not experience this shame. Instead of experiencing any kind of competition and thus dishonor, Paul gave his personal commendation on behalf of a woman to the Romans. This woman who received Paul&#8217;s personal recommendation was a servant or minister or deacon of the church at Cenchrea. \u00a0Depending on the translation, Phoebe is called &#8220;a deacon of the church,&#8221; &#8220;who serves the church,&#8221; \u00a0&#8220;our sister, who is a minister of the assembly.&#8221;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">Paul describes this woman as one who actively served the entire church at Cenchrea. Because she was one who served in this way, she was to be received favorably by the Romans and because she had been the benefactor, protector, helper of many people, including Paul himself.<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">Romans 16:2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me. \u00a0(TNIV)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">Paul was not dishonored that a woman had been his benefactor. Nor did Paul indicate that the church at Cenchrea was dishonored by having a woman minister to the entire church. She is not said to be a deacon of the women but a deacon, minister, or servant <em><strong>of the church<\/strong><\/em>. \u00a0&#8216;She is not said to bring dishonor, but Paul&#8217;s extended his commendation in honoring her. Phoebe used her gifts to benefit many people including men because she used her gifts to benefit Paul.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">Paul also was not dishonored by the ministry of Priscilla who was a &#8220;fellow worker&#8221; of Paul&#8217;s (Romans 16:3). Priscilla\u00a0was one of the teachers who taught Apollos the way of God more accurately. Apollos did not experience shame or dishonor by being taught and corrected by a woman.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">Some are so dishonored by a woman using her gifts for the benefit of the entire church that they have kept some of the best of men&#8217;s teaching away from women. Just in case that a woman might dishonor them, they will not allow her to learn about anything that has been held in high regard for the use of men alone. They will not allow her into their seminaries or take pastoral courses even though the Scriptures never hold back learning from women, and Paul himself commands that a woman should be allowed learn. A man&#8217;s \u00a0protection of his &#8220;office&#8221; from suffering &#8220;dishonor&#8221; causes him to disobey the Bible&#8217;s clear injunction to allow a woman to learn.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">Rather than holding to a position of boasting in an &#8220;office,&#8221; the Bible turns men away from such a boastful way and it commands all who desire to be the greatest in the kingdom to be the servants of all. The servant then must equip the saints for the work of service. \u00a0(Eph 4:12) \u00a0The true servant of God will equip all for service for the express purpose of building up the entire body. There can be no dishonor in equipping women to serve the body.<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 <em><strong> for the equipping of the saints for the work of service<\/strong><\/em>, to the <strong><em>building up of the body of Christ<\/em><\/strong>; 13 \u00a0until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. NASB<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: 12pt;\">True servants of God should never suffer dishonor through their position of equipping the saints when these godly women saints take that equipping and use it to build up the body of Christ. \u00a0When a Christian man turns aside from both protecting the flock and preparing them for ministry, pride will cause them to feel a need for protection<strong><em> from<\/em><\/strong> the flock especially from the gifts of godly Christian women. Any Christian leader who is dishonored and fearful of <strong><em>equipped Christian women<\/em><\/strong> is short sighted and has taken his eyes off of Jesus as the giver of the gifts and the One who has empowered us with the Holy Spirit for body service. When men&#8217;s shame and dishonor comes before the work of God, it is time for men to repent and seek His forgiveness. \u00a0I believe that when godly men turn from their pride in an &#8220;office&#8221; and turn back to the Lord Jesus in humility and start practicing the equipping of the entire body of Christ for service, God will be honored, and the Church will go out triumphant in all her glory to win the lost for Christ.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>The &#8220;role&#8221; of men and dishonor Another common objection to women in ministry is the claim that when women speak and lead publicly it dishonors men. The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW) speaks of this as dishonoring the &#8220;calling&#8221; of men: We would say that the teaching inappropriate for a woman\u00a0is the teaching of men in settings or ways that dishonor the calling of men to bear the\u00a0primary responsibility for teaching and leadership. This primary responsibility is to&#8230;<\/p>\n<p class=\"read-more\"><a class=\"btn btn-default\" href=\"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2010\/02\/09\/womens-speaking-dishonors-men\/\"> Read More<span class=\"screen-reader-text\">  Read More<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_is_tweetstorm":false,"jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":[]},"categories":[11,43,55,58,62,72],"tags":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v20.2.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Common objections: women&#039;s speaking and leading dishonors men - Women in Ministry<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"A common objection to women in ministry is the claim that when women speak and lead publicly it dishonors men. 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But are women's gifts somehow secondary? According to leading complementarians women's gifts of teaching are not equal to men's teaching gifts at all. John\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Spiritual gifts&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":2067,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2010\/05\/14\/calling-god-to-account\/","url_meta":{"origin":1828,"position":2},"title":"Calling God to account for His gifts","date":"May 14, 2010","format":false,"excerpt":"While God is Sovereign, some men believe that they can set a limit on God's gifts. \u00a0In the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood's doctrinal stand, they believe that God is allowed to distribute gifts to men and women alike with the gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12:4-26 but that\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Answering complementarian arguments&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"God's gifts on Women in Ministry blog by Cheryl Schatz","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2010\/05\/gifts.jpg?resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":154,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2007\/08\/29\/are-gods-gifts-segregated\/","url_meta":{"origin":1828,"position":3},"title":"Are God&#8217;s gifts segregated?","date":"August 29, 2007","format":false,"excerpt":"Segregation is the policy or practice of separating people of different races, classes, or ethnic groups. The question for this post - are God\u2019s gifts meant to be segregated into races, classes or ethnic groups? Let\u2019s look at some biblical examples to help us answer this question. Concerning Paul, Acts\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Spiritual gifts&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":1495,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/09\/19\/evaluating-schatz-seaver-debate\/","url_meta":{"origin":1828,"position":4},"title":"Evaluating the Schatz\/Seaver debate","date":"September 19, 2009","format":false,"excerpt":"\u00a0 Debate On July 27th, 2009 Mike Seaver and I started a ten session debate on Women in Ministry where I was able to ask Mike questions on his position, he answered my questions and then we each had one response. \u00a0Mike is still considering whether he will continue with\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;1 Corinthians 11&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"Evaluating the Schatz\/Seaver debate","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/09\/path.jpg?resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":1209,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/27\/mike-seaver-and-cheryl-schatz-1\/","url_meta":{"origin":1828,"position":5},"title":"Mike Seaver and Cheryl Schatz discuss\/debate women in ministry 1","date":"July 27, 2009","format":false,"excerpt":"Building Bridges on the Women in Ministry debate Today is the first post of a discussion between Mike Seaver and Cheryl Schatz on the issue of women in ministry. \u00a0The discussion will take the form of five questions posed by Cheryl Schatz with answers by Mike Seaver and then five\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;1 Corinthians 14&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"building-bridges on Women in Ministry blog by Cheryl Schatz","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/07\/building-bridges.jpg?resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]}],"jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1828"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1828"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1828\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":3271,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1828\/revisions\/3271"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1828"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1828"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1828"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}