{"id":1397,"date":"2009-08-14T18:31:24","date_gmt":"2009-08-15T01:31:24","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/strivetoenter.com\/wim\/?p=1397"},"modified":"2016-12-01T10:53:41","modified_gmt":"2016-12-01T17:53:41","slug":"ask-john-piper-do-some-complementarians-deny-women-opportunities","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/08\/14\/ask-john-piper-do-some-complementarians-deny-women-opportunities\/","title":{"rendered":"Ask John Piper – Do some complementarians deny women opportunities?"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"John<\/p>\n

Do Some Complementarians deny women opportunities?<\/h2>\n

On John Piper’s website is posted a question<\/strong><\/a> that someone asked of him about the application of complementarianism that affects women. \u00a0The question is:<\/span><\/p>\n

Do you think complementarianism is so important to some people that they deny women more opportunities than the Bible denies them?<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I was shocked at John Piper’s response. \u00a0You really need to listen to it for yourself. \u00a0Click on the link above to hear an audio version or see the video clip.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Below is an edited transcript of the audio from the Desiring God<\/a><\/strong> website and below that are my comments. \u00a0I welcome your comments and discussion on this important question.<\/span><\/p>\n

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<\/span><\/p>\n

John Piper’s Answer:<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

That does happen. But the problem there is not that complementarianism is important, but it’s that they don’t understand it.<\/span><\/p>\n

You can’t say, “Here’s a truth, and that truth is so important it distorts the implementation of the truth.” Because if you implement it the wrong way, it’s not the truth anymore. It’s not what we’re saying.<\/span><\/p>\n

I dealt with a couple one time. They were sitting in front of me, and she said, “He learned from you that I have to get permission from him for everything I do.” I said, “Really? Like what?” And she said, “To go to the bathroom! He won’t let me leave the room without his permission. If I get up and walk out of the room, he says, ‘Hey, you’re supposed to ask me first.'”<\/span><\/p>\n

That’s not because the man values complementarianism. That’s not complementarianism. That’s sick! So we do deny women things that we shouldn’t deny them, if we’re sick.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now the person asking this question is probably not going there. They’re probably thinking, “In the church, what kinds of ministries might a woman do?”<\/span><\/p>\n

And my answer would be that it’s a delicate thing when you’re not dealing with the clear, black-and-white issues of elder and non-elder. I mean, I think it’s clear in the Bible that women should not be the elders of the church, the spiritual leaders of the church.<\/span><\/p>\n

What kind of Sunday school classes they teach, what ages of boys they teach\u2014those are ambiguities, and I’m sure there are people who make unwise decisions at that point in the restriction of women. Or the woman could carry on a speaking ministry among women, and some men begin to gravitate into those things. I mean, things like that.<\/span><\/p>\n

So the answer would be, clearly, Yes, there are people who would draw lines in places that they shouldn’t be drawn. And we should just be constantly sensitive to what is the wise and loving application of the biblical clarity that we have for these situations. And we’re going to probably make different judgments about that.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

\n
\n

\u00a9 Desiring God<\/span><\/p>\n

Please include the following statement on any distributed copy:<\/strong> By John Piper. \u00a9 Desiring God. Website:\u00a0desiringGod.org<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n

________________________________________________________<\/span><\/p>\n

My comments:<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

The one thing that struck me about this audio that I found odd is John Piper’s laughter on such a serious topic. \u00a0I also was struck with his admitting that complementarianism is not understood by many complementarians. \u00a0I think that is an understatement. \u00a0Apparently, it must not be as “clear” in the Bible as some would like to make it out to be. \u00a0Piper says that if you implement complementarianism the wrong way, then it isn’t truth anymore<\/em>. Who can see the problem with this?<\/span><\/p>\n

It is a fact that no scripture teaches a complementarian how to implement complementarianism’s kingly authority. \u00a0In strict complementarian churches, the men are prepared to take over the “role” of authority in the home (and in the church), and it is the husband’s decisions that must be followed. \u00a0The husband is given the ability to override his wife’s will so who or what can override his authority in the marriage? \u00a0When this kind of authority is given to a man, his implementation of that authority would have to be considered his business. \u00a0Those who try to “rescue” the wife from his rulership would be interlopers in the marriage. \u00a0Who can “usurp” the authority of the priest-king of the marriage? \u00a0This kind of unilateral authority that is clearly not taught in the scriptures is a ripe playing field for a man who wants to be God’s unique representative on the earth with full rights and powers to have his kingly way. \u00a0The fact that he can claim he is acting in her best interest (because apparently, she doesn’t know what is good for her own self) removes him from having to accept any interference from outsiders in his kingdom of the home and marriage.<\/span><\/p>\n

How appealing it must be to some men to know that they can expect their wives to support them without question as God has entrusted them<\/em> as one of the special “first creation” kind who have been gifted with all the benefits of the rulership and decision-making power in their marriage. \u00a0What does it matter if he has to go against her will when he has been especially chosen by God because of his gender (not his godliness), and he has been taught by the church to model the Father’s will that apparently overrides even the will of the Son? \u00a0(For a refutation of the subordination of the Son doctrine see my DVD “The Trinity Eternity Past to Eternity Future<\/a><\/strong>“). \u00a0Do you see the opportunity for misuse of authority and abuse of his wife as a fellow heir in Christ?<\/span><\/p>\n

John Piper relates the story of a couple where the husband has implemented his authoritarian rule apparently after the privileges he has learned from John Piper. \u00a0The fact that this husband would not let his wife leave the room without his permission shows that he truly believed he knew what was best for his wife. \u00a0John Piper says that this behavior is not because the man values complementarianism. \u00a0He calls this “sick.” \u00a0He then says that some deny women things that the Bible doesn’t deny them.<\/span><\/p>\n

The problem with this is that the very heart of complementarianism is the authority of the man. \u00a0If a man believes that denying his wife her freedom to live her life with freedom of choice because it is the best way for her, then the complementarian model has no help from the scripture since there is no indication of a rulership program there. \u00a0There are no limits set in the scripture to the rulership of a man in marriage because there was no rulership given to him by God. \u00a0One and only one verse taken out of its context of the sin and shame of the man who brought rebellion against God into the world, and it is that one verse in Genesis 3 that is used to justify the man’s “dominion” of the marriage that results in a man living out that dominion by approving or denying every action that his wife takes.<\/span><\/p>\n

John Piper’s answer is that it is a “delicate” thing when not dealing with the “clear” issue of Elder. \u00a0He then lists some of the “delicate” issues that have no apparent “clear” answer. \u00a0 The question that we all need to ask ourselves is why God hasn’t made this a “clear” issue. \u00a0How come there are so many gray areas that are supposedly “unclear” whether it is a sin or not for a woman to do certain things? \u00a0 As I listen to John Piper speak, I can hear in my mind the sound of a bungled bugle.<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

1 Cor 14:7 \u00a0Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing a sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp?<\/span><\/p>\n

1 Cor 14:8 \u00a0For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound<\/strong>, who will prepare himself for battle?<\/span><\/p>\n

1 Cor 14:9 \u00a0So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

If there ever were an “indistinct sound,” this would be what it sounds like. \u00a0There are no loud bugle notes to say “Look here – this is sin.” \u00a0The warbling, indistinct sound of men everywhere trying to implement complementarianism without a law book that tells them what is right or wrong for their wife to do in her limited “role” as a helper or her limited “role” as a children’s and perhaps into-the-teens teacher is deafening in its indistinct sounds. \u00a0It is no wonder that churches everywhere inundate CBMW (The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood) with questions each year on what is “permitted” for women to do and what is restricted. \u00a0Hundreds of questions regarding things as diverse as a woman ushering to a woman giving directions to a man, have come into CBMW (apparently these are the modern interpreters of the law) should really produce another Talmud of gigantic Pharisaical proportions to strain out the gnat and separate the hairs of what an “equal” can and cannot do.<\/span><\/p>\n

John Piper admits that there are “ambiguities” and that he is “sure” people make “unwise decisions” in their restriction of women. \u00a0After all, what is a woman to do when men start gravitating towards her Sunday school room when she is teaching the bible? \u00a0Does she kick them out of her class, stop her godly teaching, or continue to teach? \u00a0What is sin and what isn’t sin?<\/span><\/p>\n

If women are “equals” with a man spiritually, then what biblical spiritual restrictions are there on men? \u00a0When does a man who is a godly Christian man go from servant of God to sinner just because of who walks into his Bible class? \u00a0The fallacy of “equal but different” is never so blatantly false as when complementarians like John Piper try to talk about the “ambiguities.” \u00a0The fact is that they teach “unequal<\/em><\/strong> and different” while the Bible teaches “fellow heirs.”<\/span><\/p>\n

Piper ends his answer by saying that, yes there are some people who will “draw lines” (that means restrictions) where they shouldn’t draw lines. \u00a0What is his solution? \u00a0We should be sensitive<\/em> to what is the wise, loving application of the biblical “clarity” that we have for these situations. \u00a0That is amazing since he just said that there are “ambiguities” here so how did it now become “clarity”? And how does counseling someone to be sensitive work for a man who believes his kingly right is to make all the decisions for his wife?<\/span><\/p>\n

Will John Piper write a handbook to help men to decide on all the “ambiguities”? \u00a0Perhaps. After all, he says that we can make “different judgments” on “biblical clarity.” \u00a0But some of these judgments are wrong, he also says. \u00a0So what is right? \u00a0I sense that he is unsure himself. \u00a0When one tries to implement a kingdom rulership<\/em><\/strong> for men that the Scripture never gives to them there will always be “unclear” and unsafe sounds coming from that bugle.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\"bugler<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Do Some Complementarians deny women opportunities? On John Piper’s website is posted a question that someone asked of him about the application of complementarianism that affects women. \u00a0The question is: Do you think complementarianism is so important to some people that they deny women more opportunities than the Bible denies them? I was shocked at John Piper’s response. \u00a0You really need to listen to it for yourself. \u00a0Click on the link above to hear an audio version or see the…<\/p>\n

Read More Read More<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_is_tweetstorm":false,"jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":[]},"categories":[2,3,5,9,10,14,18,24,43,46,48,52,61,63,72],"tags":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"yoast_head":"\nAsk John Piper - Do some complementarians deny women opportunities? - Women in Ministry<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"John Piper's response to the question "Do some complementarians deny women opportunities?" 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What egalitarians are trying so hard to do\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Challenges"","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":529,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2008\/09\/28\/semi-egalitarians\/","url_meta":{"origin":1397,"position":4},"title":"Questions of faith for semi-egalitarians","date":"September 28, 2008","format":false,"excerpt":"USA Today has an editorial written by David P Gushee in which Mr. Gushee challenges complementarians that they are actually semi-egalitarians and they should be willing to openly acknowledge this.\u00a0 Gushee says that he writes about this issue as a moderate evangelical Christian. Gushee writes that there are many theologically\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Authority and leadership"","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":779,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/01\/07\/was-1-timothy-2-written-to-the-church\/","url_meta":{"origin":1397,"position":5},"title":"Was 1 Timothy 2 written to the church?","date":"January 7, 2009","format":false,"excerpt":"Complementarians claim that 1 Timothy 2:12 is universally applicable because they say it was written for the church to know how to behave.\u00a0 According to John MacArthur, in God's High Calling for Women part 1, 1 Timothy was written to \"set the church in order\". First Timothy 3:14-15 gives us\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "1 Timothy 2"","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]}],"jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1397"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1397"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1397\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":3334,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1397\/revisions\/3334"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1397"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1397"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1397"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}