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This is the part 5 of answering Wayne Grudem\u2019s \u201cOpen letter to Egalitarians<\/strong><\/a>\u201d and his \u201cSix\u00a0Questions That Have Never Been Satisfactorily Answered\u201d. \u00a0Today I am posting his fifth question,\u00a0Suzanne McCarthy\u2019s<\/a><\/strong> answer from the Greek and my own questions below that. \u00a0My blog does not yet have the ability for me to use the Greek fonts, so I have included a link to Suzanne\u2019s article that has the Greek.<\/p>\n 5. \u201cneither X nor Y\u2019\u2019: In 1 Timothy 2:12, where Paul says, \u201cI do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man,\u2019\u2019 the grammatical structure in Greek takes the form, \u201cneither + [verb 1] + nor + [verb 2].\u2019\u2019<\/p>\n Regarding this verse, many of you tell us that the phrase \u201cto teach or to have authority\u2019\u2019 means \u201cto teach in a domineering way,\u2019\u2019 or \u201cto teach in a way that usurps authority.\u2019\u2019 You base your understanding on the idea (already mentioned above) that the verb authenteo has a negative sense such as \u201cdomineer\u2019\u2019 or \u201cusurp authority.\u2019\u2019<\/p>\n But we have a second problem with this: when we look at other examples of this Greek construction, in the form \u201cneither + [verb 1] + nor + [verb 2],\u2019\u2019 only two patterns occur: (a) verb 1 and verb 2 are activities or concepts that are both viewed positively, such as \u201cneither sow nor reap,\u2019\u2019 or \u201cneither eat nor drink,\u2019\u2019 or (b) verb 1 and verb 2 are activities or concepts that are both viewed negatively, such as \u201cneither break in nor steal\u2019\u2019 or \u201cneither leave nor forsake.\u2019\u2019 (In fact, Andreas K\u00f6stenberger\u2019s research found 52 examples of this structure in the New Testament, and 48 more examples in Greek literature outside the New Testament, from 3rd century B.C. to 1st century A.D., and the pattern was the same in all 100 examples). So we wonder how your interpretation can claim that verb 1 (\u201cteach\u2019\u2019) is a concept that is viewed positively but verb 2 (\u201chave authority\u2019\u2019) is a negative concept (\u201cdomineer, usurp authority, or instigate violence\u2019\u2019). So our question is this: Will you please show us one example in all of ancient Greek where the pattern \u201cneither + [verb 1] + nor + [verb 2]\u2019\u2019 is used to refer to one action that is viewed positively and one action that is viewed negatively?<\/p>\n If you can show us one example, we would be happy to consider your interpretation further. But if you cannot, then we suggest that you have no factual basis for your interpretation of this key verse, and we respectfully ask that you stop writing and speaking as if you did, and that you also reconsider your understanding of these verses.<\/p>\n Dr.Grudem writes,<\/p>\n 5. <\/em>\u201cneither X nor Y\u2019\u2019: In 1 Timothy 2:12, where Paul says, \u201cI do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man,\u2019\u2019 the grammatical structure in Greek takes the form, \u201cneither + [verb 1] + nor + [verb 2].\u2019\u2019<\/p>\n Will you please show us one example in all of ancient Greek where the pattern \u201cneither + [verb 1] + nor + [verb 2]\u2019\u2019 is used to refer to one action that is viewed positively and one action that is viewed negatively?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n In my previous response I explained that there is no evidence for a positive connotation for\u00a0authenteo in 1 Tim. 2:12. BDAG cites its meaning as “to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to.” In fact, Dr. Kostenberger comments,<\/p>\n owing to the scarcity of the term in ancient literature (the only NT occurence is 1 Tim. 2:12; found only twice preceding the NT in extrabiblical literature) no firm conclusions could be reached on the basis of lixical study alone.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n In fact, no one has provided an occurrence of\u00a0authenteo at the time of the NT which has a positive connotation. However, there is an example of a negative occurrence for\u00a0didasko (to teach) here in Titus 1:11,<\/p>\n They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n In conclusion, there is no positive occurrence for\u00a0authenteo (to dominate see BDAG) and there is a negative occurrence for\u00a0didasko (to teach). It is therefore probable that both verbs were meant to be taken negatively.<\/p>\n ==============<\/p>\n In the book of Revelation, John uses the same form\u00a0\u201cneither + [verb 1] + nor + [verb 2]\u2019\u2019 where teaching (didasko) is also viewed negatively.<\/p>\n Rev 2:20 \u00a0‘But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads <\/strong>My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.<\/p>\n Rev 2:21 \u00a0‘I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n While the term “teaches” is normally a positive term, it is clear that what was being taught by this woman was in regards to immorality so the two verbs are negative in this passage. \u00a0So we can clearly see from Suzanne’s example that the Greek term for teach (didasko) is a negative in at least two New Testament passages.<\/p>\n Our position is that the two verbs in 1 Timothy 2:12 are both negative (didasko and authenteo) and that Paul stopped false teaching; he did not stop correct teaching.<\/p>\n 1. \u00a0If Paul was stopping a woman (or women) from teaching the truth to men, then we ask complementarians to prove that authenteo was historically used in a positive way.<\/p>\n 2. \u00a0We also ask if women are forbidden to teach men, then why was Priscilla not chastized for teaching Apollos><\/p>\n 3. \u00a0If women are forbidden to teach men, then why was Jezebel in Revelation 2:20 rebuked only for her immorality and not rebuked for being a woman and teaching men? \u00a0Did Jesus give Jezebel time to repent of teaching the truth? \u00a0If teaching men is such a serious sin, then why did Jesus not mention that it was her gender mixed with her teaching that was wrong? \u00a0Why did he clearly only call her to repent of teaching immorality and not teaching period?<\/p>\n 4. \u00a0Can you give me a second witness where any woman was reprimanded for teaching the truth to men? \u00a0Can you give me a Bible verse that lists women teaching men as one of the sins that God commands us to repent of?<\/p>\n 5. \u00a0If women teaching men is a sin that must be turned away from, what kind of sin would it be for men listening to women teach? \u00a0Where in the bible was a man ever called to repent of listening to a woman teach? \u00a0Was Apollos chastized by Paul or any other apostle for allowing Priscilla to teach him the truth? \u00a0Did Apollos, who knew the OT scriptures ever object to Priscilla teaching him? \u00a0Did Apollos appeal to Aquilla to teach him the truth and for Priscilla to shut her mouth? \u00a0If God calls a woman to repent from the “sin” of teaching a man, but there is no equal “sin” of a man listening to a woman, wouldn’t this make God a respecter or persons?<\/p>\n I look forward to anyone trying to answer my questions.<\/p>\n Links to more posts on Answering Wayne Grudem’s “Open letter to Egalitarians”\u00a0part 1<\/strong><\/a>,\u00a0part 2<\/strong><\/a>,\u00a0part 3<\/strong><\/a>,\u00a0part 4<\/strong><\/a>, part 5<\/a><\/strong>,\u00a0part 6<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Answering Wayne Grudem 5 This is the part 5 of answering Wayne Grudem\u2019s \u201cOpen letter to Egalitarians\u201d and his \u201cSix\u00a0Questions That Have Never Been Satisfactorily Answered\u201d. \u00a0Today I am posting his fifth question,\u00a0Suzanne McCarthy\u2019s answer from the Greek and my own questions below that. \u00a0My blog does not yet have the ability for me to use the Greek fonts, so I have included a link to Suzanne\u2019s article that has the Greek. Question #5 from Wayne Grudem: 5. \u201cneither X…<\/p>\nQuestion #5 from Wayne Grudem:
\n<\/em><\/strong><\/h2>\nSuzanne McCarthy responds to Wayne Grudem:<\/em><\/strong><\/h2>\n
Cheryl’s comments and questions to Wayne Grudem:<\/em><\/strong><\/h2>\n