{"id":1155,"date":"2009-07-05T21:26:23","date_gmt":"2009-07-06T04:26:23","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/strivetoenter.com\/wim\/?p=1155"},"modified":"2016-12-07T15:44:32","modified_gmt":"2016-12-07T22:44:32","slug":"wayne-grudem-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/05\/wayne-grudem-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"Answering Wayne Grudem&#8217;s &#8220;Open letter to Egalitarians&#8221; 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><img data-attachment-id=\"1156\" data-permalink=\"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/05\/wayne-grudem-part-2\/grudem11\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/07\/grudem11.jpg?fit=175%2C319&amp;ssl=1\" data-orig-size=\"175,319\" data-comments-opened=\"1\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"grudem11 on Women in Ministry by Cheryl Schatz\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-medium-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/07\/grudem11.jpg?fit=164%2C300&amp;ssl=1\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/07\/grudem11.jpg?fit=175%2C319&amp;ssl=1\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-1156\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/07\/grudem11.jpg?resize=175%2C319\" alt=\"grudem11 on Women in Ministry by Cheryl Schatz\" width=\"175\" height=\"319\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/07\/grudem11.jpg?w=175&amp;ssl=1 175w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/07\/grudem11.jpg?resize=164%2C300&amp;ssl=1 164w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 175px) 100vw, 175px\" data-recalc-dims=\"1\" \/><\/p>\n<h1>Answering Wayne Grudem 2<\/h1>\n<p>In <strong><a title=\"Wayne Grudem's &quot;An open letter to egalitarians&quot; and &quot;Six Questions&quot; by Cheryl Schatz\" href=\"http:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/04\/wayne-grudems-an-open-letter-to-egalitarians\/\" target=\"_blank\">my last post<\/a><\/strong> I copied Wayne Grudem&#8217;s &#8220;Open letter to Egalitarians&#8221;, and I listed the first question of his &#8220;Six\u00a0Questions That Have Never Been Satisfactorily Answered&#8221;. \u00a0Today I am posting his second question, Suzanne McCarthy&#8217;s expert Greek answer, and my own challenge after that.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>2. hypotasso: Where the Bible says that wives are to \u201cbe subject to\u2019\u2019 to their husbands (Col. 3:18; Titus 2:5; 1 Peter 3:1, 5; and implied in Eph. 5:22, 24), you tell us that the verb \u201cbe subject to\u2019\u2019 (hypotasso, passive) is a requirement for both husbands and wives\u2014that just as wives are to be subject to their husbands, so husbands are to be subject to their wives, and that there is no unique authority that belongs to the husband. Rather, the biblical ideal is \u201cmutual submission\u2019\u2019 according to Ephesians 5:21, \u201cbe subject to one another,\u2019\u2019 and therefore there is no idea of one-directional submission to the husband\u2019s authority in these other verses (Col. 3:18; Titus 2:5; 1 Peter 3:1, 5; and Eph. 5:22, 24). But we have never been able to find any text in ancient Greek literature where hypotasso (passive) refers to a person or persons being \u201csubject to\u2019\u2019 another person, and where the idea of submission to that person\u2019s authority is absent. In every example we can find, when person A is said to \u201cbe subject to\u2019\u2019 person B, person B has a unique authority which person A does not have. In other words, hypotasso always implies a one-directional submission to someone in authority. So our question is this:<\/p>\n<p>Will you please show us one example in all of ancient Greek where this word for \u201cbe subject to\u2019\u2019 (hypotasso, passive) is used to refer to one person in relation to another and does not include the idea of one-directional submission to the other person\u2019s authority?<\/p>\n<p>If you can show us one example, we would be happy to consider your interpretation further. But if you cannot, then we suggest that you have no factual basis for your interpretation of these key verses, and we respectfully ask that you stop writing and speaking as if you did, and that you also reconsider your understanding of these verses.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><!--more--><\/p>\n<p>Wayne Grudem is answered by Suzanne McCarthy. \u00a0Unfortunately, I was not able to copy the Greek fonts on my blog, but the original is <strong><a title=\"Suzanne McCarthy answers Wayne Grudem on questions for egalitarians\" href=\"http:\/\/powerscourt.blogspot.com\/2008\/06\/response-open-letter.html\" target=\"_blank\">here<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>2. Hupotasso &#8211; [to submit, yield]<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Dr. Grudem writes,<\/p>\n<p><em>Will you please show us one example in all of ancient Greek where this word for \u201cbe subject to\u2019\u2019 (hypotass?, passive) is used to refer to one person in relation to another and does not include the idea of one-directional submission to the other person\u2019s authority?<\/em><\/p>\n<p>Here are two clear examples,<\/p>\n<p>1 Clement 38.1:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>\u201cSo in our case let the whole body be saved in Christ Jesus, and let each man <em><strong>be subject<\/strong><\/em> to his neighbor, to the degree determined by his spiritual gift,\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>2 Macc 13.23,<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>\u201d[King Antiochus Eupator] got word that Philip, who had been left in charge of the government, had revolted in Antioch; he was dismayed, called in the Jews, <strong><em>yielded<\/em><\/strong> and swore to observe all their rights, settled with them and offered sacrifice, honored the sanctuary and showed generosity to the holy place.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>In the first case, Christians are to be subject to their neighbour, and in the second, the king is subject to his subjects. We can rightly say that\u00a0(<em>hypotasso, passive<\/em>) is used to refer to a Christian in relation to his or her neighbour and it does not include the idea of one-directional submission to that other person\u2019s authority.<\/p>\n<p>__________________________________<\/p>\n<h2><strong>Question #2 for Complementarians by Cheryl Schatz<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p>2. \u00a0Complementarians tell us that the verb \u201cbe subject to\u2019\u2019 (hypotasso, passive) is not reciprocal with the term in Ephesians 5:21 however can you explain why all the lexicons say that it is a reciprocal pronoun meaning one another? \u00a0Why would complementarians deny for males what is clearly to be a Christian attitude? \u00a0If the submission was not to be reciprocal, then why did the Holy Spirit inspire the Greek word that means mutually, one another (reciprocal)? \u00a0If God had meant that husbands were to be exempt from the Christian attitude of submission, wouldn&#8217;t he have clearly stated their exemption?<\/p>\n<p><strong><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\">Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament<\/span><\/strong>: \u00a0genitive of the reciprocal pronoun;\u00a0<em>one another, each other, mutually<\/em>, applicable to first-, second-, or third-person referents<\/p>\n<p><strong><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\">The complete word study dictionary: New Testament<\/span><\/strong> by Zodhiates:\u00a0of a reciprocal pron. one another<\/p>\n<p><strong><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\">Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek<\/span><\/strong> <strong><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\">(New Testament)<\/span><\/strong>each other one, another; a pronoun which marks reciprocation between two persons or groups<\/p>\n<p><strong><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\">Exegetical dictionary of the New Testament. Translation of: Exegetisches Worterbuch zum Neuen Testament<\/span><\/strong>: 1. The reciprocal pron. (attested from the beginnings of Greek literature) is formed by the doubling of the stem. It originally means one to the other(s)&#8230; 2. The understanding of (Greek G240) in the NT is unproblematic; the translation each other or mutually is sufficient for every instance&#8230;Of theological relevance here is the use of (Greek G240) primarily in the description of the (obligatory) conduct of Christians in the community toward each other, with emphasis on mutuality and culminating in the love commandment<\/p>\n<p><strong><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\">A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature<\/span><\/strong> (Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., &amp; Bauer, W.) (<strong>BDAG<\/strong>): of the reciprocal pron.\u00a0<strong><em>each other, one another, mutually,<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong><span style=\"font-weight: normal;\">Links to more posts on Answering Wayne Grudem&#8217;s &#8220;Open letter to Egalitarians&#8221;<\/span><em> <a title=\"Answering Wayne Grudem part 1 on his &quot;Open Letter to Egalitarians&quot; on Women in Ministry blog by Cheryl Schatz\" href=\"http:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/04\/wayne-grudems-an-open-letter-to-egalitarians\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>part 1<\/strong><\/a>,\u00a0<a title=\"Answering Wayne Grudem part 2 on &quot;Open letter to Egalitarians&quot; on Women in Ministry blog by Cheryl Schatz\" href=\"http:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/05\/wayne-grudem-part-2\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>part 2<\/strong><\/a>,\u00a0<a title=\"Answering Wayne Grudem part 3 on Open letter to Egalitarians on Women in Ministry blog by Cheryl Schatz\" href=\"http:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/12\/wayne-grudem-3\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>part 3<\/strong><\/a>,\u00a0<a title=\"Answering Wayne Grudem part 4 on mmoutreach.org\/wim by Cheryl Schatz\" href=\"http:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/14\/wayne-grudem-4\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>part 4<\/strong><\/a>,\u00a0<strong><a title=\"Answering Wayne Grudem part 5 on &quot;Open letter to egalitarians&quot; on Women in Ministry blog by Cheryl Schatz\" href=\"http:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/18\/wayne-grudem-5\/\" target=\"_blank\">part 5<\/a><\/strong>,\u00a0<strong><a title=\"Answering Wayne Grudem part 6 on &quot;Open Letter to Egalitarians&quot; on Women in Ministry blog by Cheryl Schatz\" href=\"http:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/22\/wayne-grudem-6\/\" target=\"_blank\">part 6<\/a><\/strong><\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Answering Wayne Grudem 2 In my last post I copied Wayne Grudem&#8217;s &#8220;Open letter to Egalitarians&#8221;, and I listed the first question of his &#8220;Six\u00a0Questions That Have Never Been Satisfactorily Answered&#8221;. \u00a0Today I am posting his second question, Suzanne McCarthy&#8217;s expert Greek answer, and my own challenge after that. 2. hypotasso: Where the Bible says that wives are to \u201cbe subject to\u2019\u2019 to their husbands (Col. 3:18; Titus 2:5; 1 Peter 3:1, 5; and implied in Eph. 5:22, 24), you&#8230;<\/p>\n<p class=\"read-more\"><a class=\"btn btn-default\" href=\"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/05\/wayne-grudem-part-2\/\"> Read More<span class=\"screen-reader-text\">  Read More<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_is_tweetstorm":false,"jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":[]},"categories":[11,24,31,33,40,52,63],"tags":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v20.2.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Answering Wayne Grudem&#039;s &quot;Open letter to Egalitarians&quot; 2 - Women in Ministry<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/05\/wayne-grudem-part-2\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Answering Wayne Grudem&#039;s &quot;Open letter to Egalitarians&quot; 2 - Women in Ministry\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Answering Wayne Grudem 2 In my last post I copied Wayne Grudem&#8217;s &#8220;Open letter to Egalitarians&#8221;, and I listed the first question of his &#8220;Six\u00a0Questions That Have Never Been Satisfactorily Answered&#8221;. \u00a0Today I am posting his second question, Suzanne McCarthy&#8217;s expert Greek answer, and my own challenge after that. 2. hypotasso: Where the Bible says that wives are to \u201cbe subject to\u2019\u2019 to their husbands (Col. 3:18; Titus 2:5; 1 Peter 3:1, 5; and implied in Eph. 5:22, 24), you... 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This is the first in a six-part set of posts addressing Mr. Grudem's questions. First of all, I\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;1 Corinthians 11&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/07\/wayne_grudem.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":1166,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/12\/wayne-grudem-3\/","url_meta":{"origin":1155,"position":2},"title":"Answer Wayne Grudem&#8217;s \u201cOpen letter to Egalitarians\u201d 3","date":"July 12, 2009","format":false,"excerpt":"Answering Wayne Grudem 3 This is the part 3 of answering Wayne Grudem\u2019s \u201cOpen letter to Egalitarians\u201d and his \u201cSix\u00a0Questions That Have Never Been Satisfactorily Answered\u201d. \u00a0Today I am posting his third question and my own answer. Wayne Grudem's question #3: 3. \u201cor\u2019\u2019 (Greek e): In 1 Corinthians 14:36, some\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;1 Corinthians 14&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"grudem4 on Women in Ministry by Cheryl Schatz","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/07\/grudem4.jpg?resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":1181,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/22\/wayne-grudem-6\/","url_meta":{"origin":1155,"position":3},"title":"Answering Wayne Grudem&#8217;s \u201cOpen letter to Egalitarians\u201d 6","date":"July 22, 2009","format":false,"excerpt":"Answering Wayne Grudem This is the part 6 of answering Wayne Grudem\u2019s \u201cOpen Letter to Egalitarians\u201d and his \u201cSix\u00a0Questions That Have Never Been Satisfactorily Answered\u201d. \u00a0Today I am posting his sixth question,\u00a0Suzanne McCarthy\u2019s answer and my own questions below that. Question #6 from Wayne Grudem: 6. Women teaching false doctrine\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;1 Timothy 2&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/07\/grudem6a.jpg?resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":1178,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/18\/wayne-grudem-5\/","url_meta":{"origin":1155,"position":4},"title":"Answering Wayne Grudem&#8217;s \u201cOpen letter to Egalitarians\u201d 5","date":"July 18, 2009","format":false,"excerpt":"Answering Wayne Grudem 5 This is the part 5 of answering Wayne Grudem\u2019s \u201cOpen letter to Egalitarians\u201d and his \u201cSix\u00a0Questions That Have Never Been Satisfactorily Answered\u201d. \u00a0Today I am posting his fifth question,\u00a0Suzanne McCarthy\u2019s answer from the Greek and my own questions below that. \u00a0My blog does not yet have\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;1 Timothy 2&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/07\/grudem3a.jpg?resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":1546,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/10\/16\/do-the-genders-have-different-functions\/","url_meta":{"origin":1155,"position":5},"title":"Do the genders have different functions?","date":"October 16, 2009","format":false,"excerpt":"I am creating a new post to continue the great discussion that we have been having on a previous post while I am out of the country. \u00a0The original discussion is on this post\u00a0https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/07\/05\/wayne-grudem-part-2\/ and since we have grown to over 240 comments, I would ask that we continue our\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;1 Corinthians 11&quot;","img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]}],"jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1155"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1155"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1155\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":3367,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1155\/revisions\/3367"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1155"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1155"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1155"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}