{"id":1007,"date":"2009-05-13T22:00:07","date_gmt":"2009-05-14T05:00:07","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/strivetoenter.com\/wim\/?p=1007"},"modified":"2017-06-15T19:57:13","modified_gmt":"2017-06-16T02:57:13","slug":"paul-women-pastors-8","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/05\/13\/paul-women-pastors-8\/","title":{"rendered":"Round 8 Interview with the Apostle Paul on women pastors"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"Julie
Julie Pennington-Russell is pastor of First Baptist Church, Decatur, Georgia<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

This is the eighth in a series of simulated interviews with the Apostle Paul taken from the position of what he might say if we could transport Paul from the New Testament account through a time tunnel into our present day.<\/p>\n

Doug, a strong complementarian will be questioning Paul on his own strong hold today.\u00a0 The issue will be women pastors.\u00a0\u00a0 Let\u2019s listen in.\u00a0 (Links to the previous interviews are at the bottom of this post.)<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong>Good day brother Doug.\u00a0 Are you inviting me back for another conversation or are you too offended to talk?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> I am still highly offended, but I have cooled down enough that I want to talk.\u00a0 You said that I had pride because of my privileged position as a man.\u00a0 I am going to make you eat those words because of what you wrote in 1 Timothy 3.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Eat my words?\u00a0 Well, we will see.\u00a0 1 Timothy 3 is exactly where I was going to take you today to prove that you are prejudiced by your male pride.<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> That is impossible because of your clearly worded statement.\u00a0\u00a0 In 1 Timothy 3:2 it says that women are forbidden from being elders or pastors.<\/p>\n

1 Timothy 3:2\u00a0 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
\n1 Timothy 3:3\u00a0 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
\n1 Timothy 3:4\u00a0 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Where is the word “forbidden”?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> You are just being picky.\u00a0 It doesn’t exactly say that women are forbidden, but your words are very, very clear that women are not qualified to be pastors or elders.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> IF<\/strong><\/em> I was writing about the people who are disqualified<\/strong><\/em> for overseers, then there would have to be only one box.<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Huh?\u00a0 I don’t understand.\u00a0 What do you mean one box?<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Let me draw it out for you.<\/p>\n

\"Woman<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Paul: <\/span><\/strong>How many classes of people are in this box?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> I don’t know if you can call these “classes” of people.\u00a0 But I will play along with you here.\u00a0 There are women, unmarried men and married men without children.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Good.\u00a0 Now notice this is one box<\/strong><\/em>.\u00a0 All are together in this one box<\/strong><\/em>.\u00a0 IF<\/strong><\/em> I was giving out the classes of people who do not qualify to be overseers, then this would be the entire box<\/strong><\/em> of disqualified people.<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Well, you can’t disqualify unmarried men or married men without children!<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Because everyone knows that men are not disqualified just because of their marital situation unless they are a polygamist.\u00a0 You cannot be prejudiced against an unmarried man because he could become married someday.\u00a0 And you cannot disqualify a married man without children because he could be a father some day and besides some men cannot have children.\u00a0 Why would you disqualify them because their reproductive organs aren’t working properly?<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> There you go….you are prejudiced.\u00a0 It is just as I said.<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> What?<\/strong><\/em> I just told you that I am not<\/strong><\/em> prejudiced.\u00a0 I don’t disqualify an unmarried man or a married man without children.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong>But you do take them out of the box.<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> But the men shouldn’t be in the box.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Because…because…because no one<\/strong><\/em> has rules against unmarried men or childless men.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Then why do you have rules about women?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Because it is clear that you are prohibiting women from being in leadership.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> If it is clear, then it must also be clear that there are some men<\/strong><\/em> in the same box<\/strong><\/em>.\u00a0 If you remove the men from the box, then it proves that you have a male bias.\u00a0 It is a measuring stick that shows your prejudice against women.\u00a0 So tell me why do you remove the men, but leave the women in the box?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Because no church has those rules.\u00a0 They only have rules for women.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> So you are going to test your beliefs by the practice of other prejudiced men in other churches?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> You are really ticking me off!\u00a0 You are trying to force me to be prejudiced and I don’t want to be prejudiced.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> But you are already<\/strong><\/em> prejudiced.\u00a0 You are being faced with that prejudice and it is uncomfortable.<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> I feel that I know what is right on the inside.\u00a0 I know that it is wrong for a woman to be a pastor.\u00a0 It just feels wrong.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> We do not test things by how we feel.\u00a0 We do not test what is right and wrong by our testosterone either.\u00a0 We go to God’s word and test everything by the only straight edge that we have.\u00a0 Since I am the one who wrote 1 Timothy 3 under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, maybe it is time for you to ask me what I meant.<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Okay.\u00a0 I will.\u00a0 What did you mean by writing 1 Timothy 3:1-7?<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> I’m glad that you asked.\u00a0 Open your bible with me and let’s read.\u00a0 The Darby Bible shows verse one in an understandable fashion:<\/p>\n

1 Timothy 3:1 (Darby) The word is faithful: if any one aspires to exercise oversight, he desires a good work.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This is a “faithful” or trustworthy saying.\u00a0 What is the trustworthy saying?\u00a0 That is anyone can long for, stretch out for, or desire to have the responsibility of overseeing the church.\u00a0 Those that desire this work\u00a0 desire a very good and useful work.\u00a0 Notice that the very first qualifier is “anyone”.\u00a0 If I was going to disqualify any class of people, it would have been right here.<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> But doesn’t it say “he” desires a good work?<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> There is no “he” in the Greek.\u00a0 The grammar is generic in the very same way that the salvation passages say that “he” will be saved.\u00a0 It doesn’t mean males.\u00a0 It is the default grammar for all people.<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Then in verse two many translations miss out on a very important conjunction.\u00a0 I wrote:<\/p>\n

1 Timothy 3:2 (ALT)\u00a0 Therefore<\/strong>, it is necessary [for] the overseer to be blameless [or, above reproach], …<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I said therefore<\/strong><\/em>…<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> What is “therefore” there for?<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> It ties in verse one with verse two.\u00a0 Since anyone<\/strong><\/em> may aspire to give oversight to the church therefore it is necessary that whoever longs to gives oversight must<\/strong><\/em> be blameless.\u00a0 Do you see that the standard to attain is to be blameless?\u00a0 In what way is anyone who desires to give oversight to be blameless?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> They must be the husband of one wife.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> How is that blameless?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> They are faithful to one woman.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Okay.\u00a0 That’s good.\u00a0 But can a single man be blameless?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Well, sure.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Then what did I mean when I stated that the standard is blameless and then listed husband of one wife?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Well, an adulterer wouldn’t be blameless.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> You got it.\u00a0 But could a woman be blameless?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Not if she was an adulteress.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> That’s right.\u00a0 But what if she was happily married or happily single?\u00a0 Can she be blameless just like a single man can be?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Well, I suppose.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Then you can see, that the condition of “blameless” is not about gender.\u00a0 It is about morality.<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> So what did you mean?<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> I meant just what I said.\u00a0 There is only one real condition.\u00a0 The condition that allows anyone to make their desire to be an overseer happen is for them to strive to be blameless.\u00a0 IF<\/strong><\/em> the person is married, then that person is to be faithful.\u00a0\u00a0 While polygamy was not banned at that time, the blameless standard<\/strong><\/em> for marriage was one man and one woman.\u00a0 A polygamist was not considered faithful to one woman.<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> So blameless is the marital standard IF<\/strong><\/em> one is married and gender is not the standard?<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> That’s right.\u00a0 Let’s carry on with the standards for a blameless overseer.\u00a0 In verse two I give more examples:<\/p>\n

temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Can a married woman be temperate?\u00a0 Prudent?\u00a0 Respectable?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Of course.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Then these are not standards for gender.\u00a0 They are standards for blameless as one who oversees God’s people.\u00a0 A blameless person will be self-controlled, honorable in all they do, kind and loving to strangers, and skilled at teaching so that they can discharge their duties to care for the flock.\u00a0 More examples of blameless follow in verse three.<\/p>\n

1 Timothy 3:3\u00a0 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The one who desires to oversee the church will not be blameless if they are addicted to wine, they must not be a bully, or lack a gentle manner, they must be peace loving people and they must be free from the love of money.\u00a0 These are more things that make them blameless as an overseer.<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> But verse four must be about men only since they are the managers of the house.<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Let’s have a look.<\/p>\n

1 Timothy 3:4\u00a0 He must be one<\/em> who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The grammar here again is the generic kind that is used in all of the salvation passages.\u00a0 Are only men able to be saved?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Of course not!<\/p>\n

Paul:<\/span> <\/strong> Then can women be managers of the household too?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> I think that belongs only to men.<\/p>\n

Paul: <\/span><\/strong>Your prejudice is showing again.\u00a0 Let’s look at 1 Timothy 5:14 to see that women are also managers or rulers of the home.<\/p>\n

1 Timothy 5:14 (Darby)\u00a0 I will therefore that the younger marry, bear children, rule the house, give no occasion to the adversary in respect of reproach.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> My version says that women are to “keep house”.<\/p>\n

Paul: <\/span><\/strong>(Laughing)\u00a0 You need to check the Greek on that one.\u00a0\u00a0 I said that women are to be managers or rulers of their own homes.\u00a0 I didn’t say that their only aspiration in the home is to be cleaning women.<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Alright, I’ll accept that one by your word.<\/p>\n

Paul: <\/span><\/strong>Good.\u00a0 I am pleased.\u00a0 Now look at how I sum it all up in verse seven.<\/p>\n

1 Timothy 3:7\u00a0 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Again the “he” is not actually a male term but the standard way of expression for any person without regard to gender.\u00a0 The “blameless” is to be both inside and outside the church so that the one who desires to be an overseer will not fall into immorality or into public disgrace so that the person falls into the trap of the devil and the work of God is maligned.
\n<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> So you are saying that there is nothing in this passage that makes a woman forbidden from being an overseer?<\/p>\n

Paul: <\/span><\/strong>There is lots that would forbid her if she is not blameless.\u00a0 But is being a woman mean that one is not blameless?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Hmmmm….I guess not.<\/p>\n

Paul: <\/span><\/strong>Everything I said is in the category of morality, blameless lifestyle and it has nothing to do with gender.<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> But what about the children thing?\u00a0 You have me curious.\u00a0 Does a person have to have children to be an overseer?<\/p>\n

Paul: <\/span><\/strong>No.\u00a0 IF<\/strong><\/em> the person has children, then the children have to be managed well.\u00a0 If a person cannot manage their own household, then how can they manage the house of God.\u00a0 There are other ways for a single man or woman to show that they are blameless in managing the household of God.\u00a0 After all I do not have children, yet I have God’s approval to manage the house of God.\u00a0 Am I disqualified?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> Of course not.\u00a0 You are the Apostle Paul.<\/p>\n

Paul: <\/span><\/strong>Then stop being prejudiced.\u00a0 Get rid of your boxes and understand that this passage is about blameless living.\u00a0 It isn’t about gender.\u00a0 I would like to come back again to talk about 1 Corinthians 14.\u00a0 Are you willing to hear me out or are you still mad at me?<\/p>\n

Doug:<\/span><\/strong> I am not sure if I am still ticked or not.\u00a0 I have so many questions.\u00a0 Please do come back.\u00a0 I want to hear more.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

(The first interview with the Apostle Paul and Doug is located here<\/strong><\/a>.\u00a0 The\u00a0 second interview is here<\/strong><\/a>.\u00a0 The third interview is here<\/strong><\/a>.\u00a0 The fourth interview is here<\/strong><\/a>.\u00a0 The fifth interview is here<\/a><\/strong>.\u00a0 The sixth interview is here<\/strong><\/a>.\u00a0 The seventh interview is here<\/strong><\/a>. The ninth interview is here<\/strong><\/a>.)<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

This is the eighth in a series of simulated interviews with the Apostle Paul taken from the position of what he might say if we could transport Paul from the New Testament account through a time tunnel into our present day. Doug, a strong complementarian will be questioning Paul on his own strong hold today.\u00a0 The issue will be women pastors.\u00a0\u00a0 Let\u2019s listen in.\u00a0 (Links to the previous interviews are at the bottom of this post.)<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_is_tweetstorm":false,"jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":[]},"categories":[9,11,13,14,24,28,31,55,71],"tags":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"yoast_head":"\nRound 8 Interview with the Apostle Paul on women pastors - Women in Ministry<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/2009\/05\/13\/paul-women-pastors-8\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Round 8 Interview with the Apostle Paul on women pastors - Women in Ministry\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"This is the eighth in a series of simulated interviews with the Apostle Paul taken from the position of what he might say if we could transport Paul from the New Testament account through a time tunnel into our present day. 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