{"id":1155,"date":"2018-04-20T12:28:40","date_gmt":"2018-04-20T20:28:40","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/tg\/?p=1155"},"modified":"2018-04-20T12:28:40","modified_gmt":"2018-04-20T20:28:40","slug":"was-gods-wrath-satisfied-in-christ","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/tg\/was-gods-wrath-satisfied-in-christ\/","title":{"rendered":"Was God’s Wrath Satisfied in Christ or Paid in Hell?"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"Was<\/p>\n

Was God’s wrath satisfied in Christ? If so then how can sinners suffer God’s wrath in hell? This question is one that is often asked by Calvinists to those who do not hold to the teaching of Calvinism. The question implies that Jesus could not have died for all people since many people experience God’s wrath in hell. Yet, John Piper, one of the better known Calvinist teachers, admits that those for whom Christ died can still be subject to God’s wrath. Piper concedes that God’s wrath is “being poured out on us” in our unrighteousness. He references those for whom Christ died when\u00a0he says<\/strong><\/a>:<\/p>\n

In other words, the reason we need God to reveal HIS righteousness to us in the gospel and give it to us as a gift through faith is because we are unrighteous and resist the truth in unrighteousness and, therefore, God’s wrath is against us<\/strong>. We need righteousness. We don’t have it. God’s wrath is being poured out on us in our unrighteousness<\/strong>. Is there any hope? Yes, the gospel is the power of God to save because in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

John Piper also makes a statement that all people without a Saviour are under the wrath of God and sentenced to eternal torment in hell<\/strong>. He says in\u00a0his sermon<\/strong><\/a>:<\/p>\n

Virtually no one, outside a fairly small group of evangelicals, seriously believes<\/p>\n

1. that without a Savior all people are dead in sin and incapable of any spiritual good; and<\/p>\n

2. that without a Savior all people are captured and blinded by an evil, supernatural person named Satan; and<\/p>\n

3.\u00a0that without a Savior all people are under the wrath of God and sentenced to eternal torment in hell<\/strong>.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Salvation is an unbreakable chain?<\/strong><\/h2>\n

Consider this;\u00a0Piper also says<\/strong><\/a> that your salvation extends back into eternity and is an unbreakable chain:<\/p>\n

Chain Illustration\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Picture it like this. Your salvation is like a chain that extends back into eternity and forward into eternity. It is an unbreakable chain. Wherever you look on this chain, you find links of iron forged by God himself.<\/p>\n

\u2026God took charge of your salvation at the beginning before you existed, and God is securing its great goal before you ever get there in the future.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

At the same time that John Piper teaches eternal salvation <\/em>(one that extends back into eternity), he admits that you were also sentenced to eternal torment<\/em> in hell. This is eternally elect\u00a0<\/em>yet still\u00a0sentenced to eternal torment in hell<\/em>. If John Piper can see two opposite things as being true at the same time, why does he teach that it is double jeopardy if someone ends up in hell for whom Christ died?<\/p>\n

\n

Double Jeopardy and “Paying” for Sins in Hell<\/strong><\/h2>\n

Double jeopardy is considered a problem for some Christians who think that their sins were all forgiven<\/em> at the cross. Some are challenged by John Piper’s teaching that Jesus could not die for every person because that would mean that sinners in hell would be paying twice<\/strong> for the same sins for which Jesus had already paid. Do sinners “pay” for their sins in hell the same way that Jesus “paid” for their sins? Let’s look carefully at this challenge.<\/p>\n

\n

The wages of sin is death<\/strong><\/h2>\n

The wages of sin is death, but who is paying in hell? Some say that sins must be paid for by Jesus or by us in hell. Does the Bible say this?<\/p>\n

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin<\/strong> is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The wages of sin is not<\/strong><\/em> what the sinner pays. The wages of sin is what sin pays<\/strong><\/em> the sinner. In other words, the consequence, the result of sin is death. There is nothing that a sinner can pay to have his sins taken away. Billions of years\u00a0in hell cannot provide a payment for one’s sins. Payment in hell is impossible<\/strong> because we cannot bear our own sins to take them away. The redemption is costly and must be sinless.<\/p>\n

Psalm 49:7\u20139<\/p>\n

7<\/sup> No man can by any means redeem his<\/i> brother Or give to God a ransom for him\u2014 8<\/sup> For the redemption of his soul is costly, And he should cease trying<\/i> forever\u2014 9<\/sup> That he should live on eternally, That he should not undergo decay.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

John Piper denies universal redemption because he claims it would amount to a double payment. Piper writes in his\u00a0article, “For Whom Did Jesus Taste Death?<\/strong><\/a>”<\/p>\n

But what would it mean to say of an unbeliever in hell that Christ died for his sins? Would we mean that the debt for his sins was paid? If so, why is he paying again<\/strong> in hell?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The answer to John Piper’s question is that hell is not a place of debt-paying. Hell is a place of consequences.<\/p>\n

\n

Was the wrath of God removed from us as unbelievers at the cross?<\/strong><\/h2>\n

John Piper asks a second question about why unbelieving sinners would experience God’s wrath if Jesus died for them. Piper writes:<\/p>\n

Would we mean that the wrath of God was removed? If so, why is the wrath of God being poured out on him in punishment for sins<\/strong>?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

In other words, if the death of Jesus was for the whole world, and the death of Jesus took away God’s wrath, then how could God pour out His wrath on someone for whom Jesus died? In essence John Piper is implying that a person for whom Jesus died cannot<\/strong>\u00a0still be under the wrath of God. But is this true? The Bible tells us that God’s wrath and His condemnation was on all of us at one time.<\/p>\n

Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath<\/strong>, even as the rest<\/strong>.<\/p>\n

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness<\/strong> of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,<\/p>\n

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men<\/strong>, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.<\/p>\n

Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience<\/strong>.<\/p>\n

Colossians 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind<\/strong>, engaged<\/i> in evil deeds,<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

\n

Just as the rest of the world<\/strong><\/h2>\n

Just as the rest of the world, we were by nature children of wrath<\/em>, condemned by God, sons of disobedience, alienated and hostile to God, and subject to the wrath of God because of our sin. Even though Jesus died for us, our position<\/em> as enemies of God<\/strong> did not change.<\/p>\n

Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies<\/strong> we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Was it fair for God to condemn us and treat us as children of His wrath? Yes, it was fair for we were not yet reconciled to Him.<\/p>\n

John Piper affirms that our being children of wrath is not believed by many when he gives two reasons<\/strong><\/a> for such an unbelief in God’s wrath on us:<\/p>\n

There are two fundamental reasons why these things are not believed<\/p>\n

1. because they are unflattering to human nature<\/em>, and<\/p>\n

2. because they have to be learned from God<\/em> not man.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Piper also concedes under the heading “Whose wrath<\/strong><\/a>” that the term children “of wrath” refer’s to God’s wrath<\/strong>. Piper writes:<\/p>\n

But there remains one more thing to say concerning our condition without a Savior. At the end of verse 3 Paul says that “we were by nature children of wrath.”<\/p>\n

Whose Wrath?<\/p>\n

Ephesians 5:5\u20136<\/a> puts it like this:<\/p>\n

Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.<\/p>\n

So it is God’s wrath that is coming. We were “by nature children of the wrath OF GOD.” Which means that we naturally did those things which God hates. By nature we rejected the knowledge of God (Romans 2:28<\/a>), and by nature we refused the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14<\/a>), and by nature we were filled with desires that amounted to idolatry (Colossians 3:5<\/a>).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

So, under John Piper’s line of reasoning<\/em>, we ask how could God be righteous if He treated us as enemies of God, treated us as children of wrath, and condemned us for our sin as he did the world, if Jesus had already died on our<\/strong><\/em> behalf? Why was this condemnation on us if Jesus died for us? John Piper answers this question himself. He writes<\/strong><\/a>:<\/p>\n

Righteous Wrath<\/p>\n

And what we learn from Scripture is that God would be unrighteous if he looked with indifference on our sin,<\/strong> because our sin dishonors him so much.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

We were under God’s wrath not because Jesus did not die for us (because He did) but because we were not yet in Christ<\/strong><\/em>, our rock of safety.<\/p>\n

\n

God’s Righteous Wrath<\/strong><\/h2>\n

God’s righteousness requires that He not be indifferent to the sin of any person. Sin dishonors Him and the fact that He condemns sinners, whether it was us before we trusted in Christ, or whether it is unbelievers who die in their sin, shows God’s justice. The fact that we were children of God’s wrath<\/strong> even after<\/strong><\/em> Jesus died for us, proves that the payment for sin does not stop God’s wrath. Until a person is in<\/strong><\/span> Christ he\/she is subject to God’s condemnation and wrath. Paul affirms that the condemnation is gone “now”. When and for whom is God’s condemnation gone? Only for those who are IN Christ Jesus.<\/p>\n

Romans 8:1\u00a0<\/span>Therefore there is now<\/strong><\/span> no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

While John Piper believes that God cannot judge, He cannot condemn, and He cannot apply His wrath to a person in hell if Jesus died for that person, he is very wrong. God is just and righteous in judgment. If God cannot judge an unbeliever in hell, then by the very same standard, He could not judge us as enemies of God and children of wrath before<\/strong> we were saved. But He did.<\/p>\n

\n

The Curse of the Law<\/strong><\/h2>\n

John Piper continues to argue<\/strong><\/a> that one can’t bear the curse of God if Jesus died for that person’s sin.<\/p>\n

Would we mean that the curse of the law was lifted? If so, why is he bearing his curse<\/strong> in the lake of fire?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

John Piper is challenging 95% of Christians who say that Jesus died for everyone.<\/p>\n

My guess is that most of those 95% who say Jesus died for everybody would have a hard time explaining just what it is that the death of Jesus really, actually accomplished for everybody\u2014especially what it accomplished for those who refuse to believe and go to hell.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

But Paul who knew the gospel well, gives a testimony that is powerful in that he requests something of God that Piper says is impossible.<\/p>\n

\n

Paul’s testimony about God’s wrath and his request for his own destruction in hell<\/strong><\/h2>\n

Paul knew that Jesus died for him. Paul said:<\/p>\n

Galatians 2:20\u00a0<\/span>\u201cI have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the <\/span>life\u00a0<\/span>which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me<\/strong>.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

However, while Paul knew that Jesus died for him, he also testified<\/strong> that he had great sorrow and grief in his heart to the point that he expressed a desire to go to hell (be accursed) and be separated from Christ<\/strong> on behalf of his brethren.<\/p>\n

Romans 9:1\u20133<\/span><\/p>\n

1<\/sup><\/span>I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,<\/span>2<\/sup><\/span>that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.<\/span>3<\/sup><\/span>For I could wish that I myself were accursed, <\/strong><\/span>separated\u00a0<\/span><\/strong>from Christ for the sake of my brethren<\/strong>, my kinsmen according to the flesh,<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Paul’s expression was a specific real desire to God for the sake of his brethren.<\/p>\n

\"Romans<\/p>\n

The grammar that Paul uses is indicative – The mood in which the action of the verb is presented by the writer as real, as opposed to possible<\/strong>.<\/p>\n

\"Indicative<\/p>\n

Paul was willing<\/strong> to suffer the wrath of God for the sake of his brethren. Paul’s intention to be accursed was expressed as real<\/strong>\u00a0and was not a lie<\/strong>. Paul did not see a problem of double jeopardy in his desire to be accursed by God for the sake of the lost. And Paul was not alone in his faithful desire to see the lost saved.<\/p>\n

\n

The testimony of Moses and his request for destruction<\/strong><\/h2>\n

Moses was also very passionate for the salvation of his brethren, those who had wickedly sinned against God. Moses tells Israel that he is going to the Lord and requesting atonement for the sin of the people. And if God would not just forgive Israel, Moses would ask God to be destroyed from God’s book of life. Moses was asking to make atonement for the sin of Israel.<\/p>\n

Exodus 32:30\u201332<\/span><\/p>\n

30<\/sup><\/span>On the next day Moses said to the people, \u201cYou yourselves have committed a great sin; and now I am going up to the <\/span><\/span>Lord<\/span><\/span>, perhaps I can make atonement for your sin<\/strong>.\u201d\u00a0<\/span>31<\/sup><\/span>Then Moses returned to the <\/span>Lord<\/span>, and said, \u201cAlas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves.\u00a0<\/span>32\u00a0<\/sup><\/span>\u201cBut now, if You will, forgive their sin\u2014and if not, please blot me out from Your book<\/strong> which You have written!\u201d<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The removal of the wicked from the book of life is documented in Psalm 69:26-28. This is a Psalm about the death of the Messiah and the the wickedness of those who persecuted Jesus.<\/p>\n

Psalm 69:26\u201328<\/span><\/p>\n

26<\/sup><\/span>For they have persecuted him whom You Yourself have smitten,\u00a0<\/span>And they tell of the pain of those whom You have wounded.\u00a0<\/span>27<\/sup><\/span>Add iniquity to their iniquity,\u00a0<\/span>And may they not come into Your righteousness.\u00a0<\/span>28<\/sup><\/span>May they be blotted out of the book<\/strong> of life<\/strong>\u00a0<\/span>And may they not be recorded with the righteous.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Blotting one out of the book of life is an eternal judgment against those who were in the book of life to begin with.\u00a0The intention of Moses was to seek atonement for Israel’s sin. His cry to God was to suffer destruction and a removal from God’s book of life rather than to see his brethren lost. Although God denied the plea of Moses (Exodus 32:33), Moses was said to be faithful in God’s house as a foreshadowing of the faithfulness of Christ.<\/p>\n

Hebrews 3:5\u20136<\/span><\/p>\n

5<\/sup><\/span>Now Moses was faithful in all His house<\/strong> as a servant, for a testimony<\/strong> of those things which were to be spoken later;\u00a0<\/span>6<\/sup><\/span>but Christ <\/strong><\/span>was faithful\u00a0<\/span><\/strong>as a Son over His house<\/strong>\u2014whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Paul and Moses fought for their unsaved brethren as faithful mediators before God. They did not see their request to God as impossible or as “double jeopardy” because Jesus died for their sin.<\/p>\n

\n

Freedom from God’s Wrath is Experienced in Christ<\/strong><\/h2>\n

Salvation, forgiveness, and righteousness are found IN Christ. Salvation is conditionally<\/strong><\/em> found in Christ even though it is unconditionally paid<\/strong><\/em> for by His death. Can God do it this way? Of course even though Israel called this way “not right”. \u00a0God argued with Israel that His ways are right even they were accusing God of injustice. They refused to accept God’s conditions. Here is what God said about a righteous man:<\/p>\n

Ezekiel 18:24\u201329<\/span><\/p>\n

24<\/sup><\/span>\u201cBut when a righteous man<\/strong> turns away from his righteousness<\/span>, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.\u00a0<\/span>25<\/sup><\/span>\u201cYet you say, \u2018The way of the Lord is not right<\/strong>.\u2019 Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?<\/strong>\u00a0<\/span>26<\/sup><\/span>\u201cWhen a righteous man<\/strong> turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it<\/strong>, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.\u00a0<\/span>27<\/sup><\/span>\u201cAgain, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.\u00a0<\/span>28<\/sup><\/span>\u201cBecause he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.\u00a0<\/span>29<\/sup><\/span>\u201cBut the house of Israel says, \u2018The way of the Lord is not right.\u2019 Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Is God wrong when Jesus stated that forgiven debt can be put back onto the account of the one who has been forgiven, if the person does not forgive?<\/p>\n

Matthew 18:32\u201335<\/span><\/p>\n

32<\/sup><\/span>\u201cThen summoning him, his lord said to him, \u2018You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.<\/span>33<\/sup><\/span>\u2018Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?\u2019<\/span>34<\/sup><\/span>\u201cAnd his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.<\/span>35<\/sup><\/span>\u201cMy heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.\u201d<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

It was to Peter that Jesus made this important comment. Peter was one for whom Jesus died, yet Jesus said that if Peter did not forgive, what was forgiven would be unforgiven him.<\/p>\n

Is God’s way wrong?<\/strong><\/h2>\n

Can we say that this way is wrong? Are we to accuse God of double jeopardy, like Israel did, if what was forgiven can be brought back? God’s conditional way for remaining in safety in Christ is that we must forgive others. God’s way is conditional. God’s way is right. God’s way is IN Christ.<\/p>\n

Was God’s Wrath Satisfied in Christ?<\/strong><\/h2>\n

Yes, God’s wrath was satisfied in Christ! However, God’s wrath is not available outside<\/strong> Christ.<\/p>\n

The Giving Video<\/strong><\/h2>\n

At this time we are getting ready to film our last segment of our video The Giving<\/strong>. The Giving answers the challenges of Calvinism from John chapter 6. Please subscribe to this blog to be notified when the DVD and video download will be available.<\/p>\n

For more on the death of Christ and answering Calvinism, see Was the Death of Jesus Evil? Calvinism and Ordained Evil<\/strong><\/a>.<\/p>\n

Please subscribe to this blog to receive updates of new articles.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Was God’s wrath satisfied in Christ? If so then how can sinners suffer God’s wrath in hell? This question is one that is often asked by Calvinists to those who do not hold to the teaching of Calvinism. The question implies that Jesus could not have died for all people since many people experience…<\/p>\n

Read More Read More<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_is_tweetstorm":false,"jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","enabled":false}}},"categories":[17,44,84,8],"tags":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"yoast_head":"\nWas God's Wrath Satisfied in Christ or Paid in Hell? - The Giving<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Was God's wrath satisfied in Christ? Some Christians say that people for whom Christ died can NEVER end up in hell. They also say that those in hell are paying for their own sins because either Jesus pays or the sinner pays. What is wrong with this logic? 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There are many parts of Piper's article that I would like to address, but I will deal with them one at a time in individual posts.\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Answering Challenges"","block_context":{"text":"Answering Challenges","link":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/tg\/category\/answering-challenges\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"Purchased faith is key to John Piper's Calvinism","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/mmoutreach.org\/tg\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/03\/purchased-faith-is-key-to-John-Pipers-Calvinism.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":1101,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/tg\/what-did-the-death-of-jesus-do-for-the-world\/","url_meta":{"origin":1155,"position":1},"title":"What did the death of Jesus do for the world?","author":"Cheryl Schatz","date":"March 28, 2018","format":false,"excerpt":"What did the death of Jesus do for the world? The death of Jesus for the world is a delicate question for Calvinists according to John Piper. 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Those who believe in Calvinism are quick to accuse those who do not believe the same way.\u00a0The accusation comes in the form of two questions. The questions that are commonly asked: \"Why did you respond positively to the gospel, and your neighbor did not? Are you better\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Answering Challenges"","block_context":{"text":"Answering Challenges","link":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/tg\/category\/answering-challenges\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"Are you better than those who say no? 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If we are to believe Calvinism, we would have to conclude that God is a \"dragger.\" Calvinists are quick to point out that in John 6:44 the term \"draw\" actually means \"drag\" and this is what God does to His elect who, in\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Election"","block_context":{"text":"Election","link":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/tg\/category\/election\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"Does Draw mean Drag? by Cheryl Schatz on The Giving blog","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/tg\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/12\/drag3.jpg?resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/tg\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/12\/drag3.jpg?resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/tg\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/12\/drag3.jpg?resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.mmoutreach.org\/tg\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/12\/drag3.jpg?resize=700%2C400 2x"},"classes":[]},{"id":510,"url":"https:\/\/mmoutreach.org\/tg\/shepherd-or-sheep\/","url_meta":{"origin":1155,"position":5},"title":"Calvinism: Who chooses? 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